V3 Intake Spacer Coming Soon... Need input and a list for group buy! - Page 2 - DodgeIntrepid.Net Forums - Dodge Intrepid, Concorde, 300m and Eagle Vision chat
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post #16 of 135 (permalink) Old 10-10-2012, 05:42 PM Thread Starter
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Groove will be going in then! Shouldn't be too big of a hassle.

Next ordeal would be the EGR hoses for 99-01 vehicles. I've read they don't line back up (3/8" off due to spacer) and will require either..

A. Modification
- Bend hoses
- Extend pipe by welding 3/8" of tube on the spacer
- Extend gaskets up and lower intake over ERG tubes and tighten

B. Removal
- Cap EGR and forget about it (have heard this MAY cause rough idle/CEL)


What I was considering was doing a "core" charge for the EGR tubes and I will send you a modified (extended) EGR tube and have the welding done by a friend locally. Send me old EGR and I can send the core charge back. Similar to how Spad3 offered.

Thoughts?
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post #17 of 135 (permalink) Old 10-11-2012, 12:45 PM
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Sounds fair to me in the sense you really don't have to offer them that ^^
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post #18 of 135 (permalink) Old 10-11-2012, 07:04 PM Thread Starter
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Updated List:

If you are interested add your name to the list below:
1. Austin R/T (DI)
2. Adpros (DI)
3. YesImLDS (DI)
4. DjGreggieP (DI)
5. Bigde024 (DI)
6. Kent Vice (300M Club)
7. 300M-Mike (300M Club)
8. Ledgic_13 (LH)
9. hrmwrm (LH)
10.


Does anyone have any ideas about getting the plenum gaskets cheap? I see VICTOR REINZ brand gaskets are VERY cheap but this also scares me a little. I can buy them in bulk to help bring down price but not sure where or what brand is best option. Any ideas?
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post #19 of 135 (permalink) Old 10-14-2012, 01:30 AM
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I've been a little out of the loop, but what happened to Josh making the spacers?

I actually can have a lot of design input here. I've had both previous versions, was an early adopter of the original (second or third IIRC), and was actually part of the initial design process for V2 before the machining was handed over to Josh. I would wager I personally have done the most with intake spacers on my car for a second gen LH owner. If you want to see it for yourself it's all here.

LIM 2.0 + Intake Spacer 2.0 + Plenum Modification (Very Picture Heavy)

Even the V2 design doesn't actually match up perfectly. If you really wanted to do this right you need to base measurements off either the LIM, plenum, or ideally both. To get this effect I took a V2 spacer and reground the openings to match the ported LIM I was making, but the shape is pretty close as is to the LIM. The plenum on the other hand has significantly different ports that don't match up, so there is a pretty rough transition in the air pathways. I went the whole 9 yards of grinding/sanding/polishing out the plenum to match the opened up spacer I used.

It all depends on how "all out" you're interested in going. I tend to be a over the top kind of guy.

I never did anything special to deal with the EGR, which my car has. A little bit of bending but mostly just some skill in re installing the plenum and it seals up fine. I've been running this for something like 7 years and never a leak. I've given tips on it to a few before, but for others it's been hit or miss if they've been able to replicate my success. I used the push gaskets up to the top of the tube method, but you have to be careful not to wobble the plenum while re installing. If it leans to one side it will push that gasket back down.
Josh would weld extensions on tubes for people as you mentioned as an option.

As far as grooves for a gasket. It would certainly make installation easier, but I'll voice a few concerns. The grooves to fit the gasket correctly would have to be pretty deep relative to the thickness of these spacers. It would probably cut half way through the material. Also the aluminum spacers are generally machined out of is very soft, and RTV does an excellent job of sealing the surface regardless of scratches that may end up on the spacer. I'm sure a groove method to use another gasket could be made to work, but I would be weary of taking the chance instead of a fairly easy method that is tried and true.

I'll be glad to share any more of my experiences with you about spacers if you have questions.



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post #20 of 135 (permalink) Old 10-14-2012, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainMorgan View Post
As far as grooves for a gasket. It would certainly make installation easier, but I'll voice a few concerns. The grooves to fit the gasket correctly would have to be pretty deep relative to the thickness of these spacers. It would probably cut half way through the material. Also the aluminum spacers are generally machined out of is very soft, and RTV does an excellent job of sealing the surface regardless of scratches that may end up on the spacer. I'm sure a groove method to use another gasket could be made to work, but I would be weary of taking the chance instead of a fairly easy method that is tried and true.

I'll be glad to share any more of my experiences with you about spacers if you have questions.
I think I might be inclined to agree here. If you make the groove too deep, you might be inviting the opportunity for cracking them.

Mopar has a new tri-bond RTV mostly used on the 3.6L timing covers and pans which is much better than any of the standard RTV products. Perhaps a shallow groove would be OK and then filled with the tri-bond?
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post #21 of 135 (permalink) Old 10-14-2012, 12:26 PM
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I think I might be inclined to agree here. If you make the groove too deep, you might be inviting the opportunity for cracking them.

Mopar has a new tri-bond RTV mostly used on the 3.6L timing covers and pans which is much better than any of the standard RTV products. Perhaps a shallow groove would be OK and then filled with the tri-bond?
I really don't think that's necessary. Once the spacer is installed there are no strong forces exerted on it and only air pressure. I haven't touched mine since the big install of version 2.
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post #22 of 135 (permalink) Old 10-14-2012, 02:32 PM
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http://www.permatex.com/brand_right_stuff.htm
all we use at our shop for any gasket. even to hold orings in place til installed, diff covers, etc.
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post #23 of 135 (permalink) Old 10-14-2012, 06:22 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainMorgan View Post
I've been a little out of the loop, but what happened to Josh making the spacers?

I actually can have a lot of design input here. I've had both previous versions, was an early adopter of the original (second or third IIRC), and was actually part of the initial design process for V2 before the machining was handed over to Josh. I would wager I personally have done the most with intake spacers on my car for a second gen LH owner. If you want to see it for yourself it's all here.

LIM 2.0 + Intake Spacer 2.0 + Plenum Modification (Very Picture Heavy)

Even the V2 design doesn't actually match up perfectly. If you really wanted to do this right you need to base measurements off either the LIM, plenum, or ideally both. To get this effect I took a V2 spacer and reground the openings to match the ported LIM I was making, but the shape is pretty close as is to the LIM. The plenum on the other hand has significantly different ports that don't match up, so there is a pretty rough transition in the air pathways. I went the whole 9 yards of grinding/sanding/polishing out the plenum to match the opened up spacer I used.

It all depends on how "all out" you're interested in going. I tend to be a over the top kind of guy.

I never did anything special to deal with the EGR, which my car has. A little bit of bending but mostly just some skill in re installing the plenum and it seals up fine. I've been running this for something like 7 years and never a leak. I've given tips on it to a few before, but for others it's been hit or miss if they've been able to replicate my success. I used the push gaskets up to the top of the tube method, but you have to be careful not to wobble the plenum while re installing. If it leans to one side it will push that gasket back down.
Josh would weld extensions on tubes for people as you mentioned as an option.

As far as grooves for a gasket. It would certainly make installation easier, but I'll voice a few concerns. The grooves to fit the gasket correctly would have to be pretty deep relative to the thickness of these spacers. It would probably cut half way through the material. Also the aluminum spacers are generally machined out of is very soft, and RTV does an excellent job of sealing the surface regardless of scratches that may end up on the spacer. I'm sure a groove method to use another gasket could be made to work, but I would be weary of taking the chance instead of a fairly easy method that is tried and true.

I'll be glad to share any more of my experiences with you about spacers if you have questions.
Thanks for posting! I really appreciate your input!

Josh said he can't make them anymore because of his relationship with the previous producer. He said he left on bad terms. Thanks for the reassuring info on the EGR tubes, this was my biggest concern going into this!

As for the the groove. The gasket, to have it seat in properly would be 3/16" while the spacer itself is only 6/16" So the groove would be going through half of the spacer itself. The track itself wouldn't be of any concern because the most narrow passage is 6/16" while the groove would only be 2/16" wide (slightly bigger for intersections). In my honest opinion, I don't think it will effect any structural element of the spacer. If you drop it, okay then sure maybe.. but if your just putting the spacer on top of the lower intake manifold and clamping the plenum on top, by no means will it just snap in half lol.

If necessary, I CAN make these slightly thicker too.. but then modification to the EGR may be mandatory and no longer optional... On the flip side, I could make both half inch and 3/8" spacers. 1/2 for 02-04, 3/8 for 99-01. If someone with the 99-01 wanted a half inch spacer, then you would buy with the understanding that modification to the EGR would be necessary.

Thoughts?
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post #24 of 135 (permalink) Old 10-14-2012, 07:02 PM
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Thanks for posting! I really appreciate your input!

Josh said he can't make them anymore because of his relationship with the previous producer. He said he left on bad terms. Thanks for the reassuring info on the EGR tubes, this was my biggest concern going into this!

As for the the groove. The gasket, to have it seat in properly would be 3/16" while the spacer itself is only 6/16" So the groove would be going through half of the spacer itself. The track itself wouldn't be of any concern because the most narrow passage is 6/16" while the groove would only be 2/16" wide (slightly bigger for intersections). In my honest opinion, I don't think it will effect any structural element of the spacer. If you drop it, okay then sure maybe.. but if your just putting the spacer on top of the lower intake manifold and clamping the plenum on top, by no means will it just snap in half lol.

If necessary, I CAN make these slightly thicker too.. but then modification to the EGR may be mandatory and no longer optional... On the flip side, I could make both half inch and 3/8" spacers. 1/2 for 02-04, 3/8 for 99-01. If someone with the 99-01 wanted a half inch spacer, then you would buy with the understanding that modification to the EGR would be necessary.

Thoughts?
I didn't mean to say I thought it would just snap .

I would say the groove depends on the machining process. If you're confidant you can do it successfully, then I wouldn't worry too much. The other issue is that you're adding extra passes into the machining process. Will that significantly change cost? If so then it's not worth it, but if not then you are fine.

The one other thing about doing the groove for the gasket instead is that it's a new design element on the product that wasn't tested on earlier versions. You would definitely have to run off a prototype and install it to make sure it works how it's designed to. You wouldn't want to send out a whole production run to find out the gaskets don't seat in the groove correctly .

As far as 1/2" spacers go, give it a shot. I wouldn't try any more than that because of clearance in the engine bay, but I believe 1/2" could be done. I personally toyed with the idea of also adding a throttle body spacer to get a little extra in without having to make other changes, but never pursued it seriously.



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post #25 of 135 (permalink) Old 10-14-2012, 09:05 PM Thread Starter
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I didn't mean to say I thought it would just snap .

I would say the groove depends on the machining process. If you're confidant you can do it successfully, then I wouldn't worry too much. The other issue is that you're adding extra passes into the machining process. Will that significantly change cost? If so then it's not worth it, but if not then you are fine.

The one other thing about doing the groove for the gasket instead is that it's a new design element on the product that wasn't tested on earlier versions. You would definitely have to run off a prototype and install it to make sure it works how it's designed to. You wouldn't want to send out a whole production run to find out the gaskets don't seat in the groove correctly .

As far as 1/2" spacers go, give it a shot. I wouldn't try any more than that because of clearance in the engine bay, but I believe 1/2" could be done. I personally toyed with the idea of also adding a throttle body spacer to get a little extra in without having to make other changes, but never pursued it seriously.
I will check with Andy and make sure the groove can be done without causing issues during machining, good idea.

I've already signed myself up for a prototype, even if I wasn't making any other changes I would still have one JUST incase there are some slight differences (my only concern would be the fillets but in reality the outside cut doesn't need to line up the same way anyway. I was also planning on running this on my car first and making sure everything worked out ok. Like I said early, I have yet to get my hands dirty with this project so I really have no means of giving advice on installation. So before I can sell any it has to go in my car first and then I'd be confident enough to be able to assist others in installing their units as well.

BUT! Progress...

Check this out. This is just a ROUGH mock of what it will look like. By no means am I done as I'm still waiting for my digital calipers to arrive so I can put in some precise measurements. Everything I have now is just off a ruler But it gives everyone an idea of the final product.



What do you guys think? The groove is about 3/16" deep, the entire spacer is 6/16" in thickness. Everything is about 2/16-3/16" thick. I don't see it interfering with structural soundness unless maybe you threw it on the ground or something and then maybe a corner would chip off. But if you throw my spacer then you deserve that.
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post #26 of 135 (permalink) Old 10-14-2012, 09:48 PM
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Looking good.
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post #27 of 135 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 12:06 AM Thread Starter
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I was asked about making the outside walls thicker. That way if you drop it its less likely to chip. I was thinking about increasing it from 3/8" (from groove to edge) to 1/2"

I was also consider making these 1/2" spacers only (forcing 99-01 to modify the EGR tube by welding an extension on). This will make the V3 spacer a little more unique and give you a little better performance.

Thoughts?
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post #28 of 135 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 12:24 AM
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I was asked about making the outside walls thicker. That way if you drop it its less likely to chip. I was thinking about increasing it from 3/8" (from groove to edge) to 1/2"

I was also consider making these 1/2" spacers only (forcing 99-01 to modify the EGR tube by welding an extension on). This will make the V3 spacer a little more unique and give you a little better performance.

Thoughts?
Instead of trying to make it thicker around the outside edge make it a slight bit wider. There really is no reason to make it match so closely to the outside edge of the LIM other than weight, which for that amount is completely irrelevant. The inside edge is the one that needs to be accurate.
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post #29 of 135 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 12:43 AM Thread Starter
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That's what I attempted to describe lol. The outer edge (width from gasket groove to edge) could be changed to approx the width of whats around the bolt holes or maybe even a little bit more. I will edit the model tomorrow.
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post #30 of 135 (permalink) Old 10-15-2012, 11:24 AM
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I am really liking where this is going. I mentioned this to a friend, even showed him the dyno, and he is still dead set on 'no, its impossible, it won't work like that'

I am debating on doing an EGR delete so I am liking the idea of a 1/2 inch spacer.
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