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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-01-2010, 11:15 AM Thread Starter
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Question Checking Fuel Pressure

My 96 Eagle Vison with the 3.5L V6 Will Not Start, Even After Trying To Jump Start It.

I am Assuming That Somthing Is Wrong With the Fuel System.

But, How Do I check to see if the system works?

How do I check for Fuel Pressure?

I have looked aound and I either get a very general answer, or that I need special Chrysler equipment.

What is the correct way
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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-01-2010, 11:46 AM
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To check fuel pressure you need a gauge like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Fuel-...motiveQ5fTools
You will find what looks like a valve cap on the fuel rail or feed line, that is where the pressure gauge is attached. in your case its right near the thermostat on the line that connects the left and right fuel rail. Then all you have to do is crank the motor.
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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-01-2010, 12:36 PM
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Or, you could get some starting fluid and spray some starting fluid in the intake tube - only shoot for a second or two, not three or four. Then, crank the engine over and see if it runs for a couple of seconds. If it does, you have a fuel problem (the car was running only on the starting fluid, not on gas). If you don't really get any activity out of the engine, then you have a spark or a spark AND fuel problem because there was no spark to ignite the starting fluid.

The gauge is better, but the starting fluid may be cheaper/easier/sooner.

The other thing you could do is take the gas cap off, and have a friend turn the key to 'run' (not crank/start), and listen quietly at the tank. If you hear a buzzing sound, your pump is running (may not be pressurizing due to a bad regulator or something, but at least you hear it run), but if you hear nothing, then you know you have a bad fuel pump, or a blown fuse, bad relay, computer probem, etc...

Report back what you do and what you find, and we can help diagnose from there.
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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-01-2010, 06:42 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the replies, but, I have 2 questions:

1: Does this engine need a specail fuel pressure kit? Or can I buy one at Pep Boys/Auto Zone/ Etc.? I am asking because in the service manual I have it show that along with the gage a "Fuel Pressure Test Adapter 6539" is also showen, but. not what is is used for.

2: do yoe have a image of excatly where the pressue test port is?

As for the other "testing" methods, if I can't get a pressure gage I try them.

Stay tuned
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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-01-2010, 07:29 PM
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If you have a Autozone or Checkers nearby you don't need to buy anything. You can just rent the fuel pressure gauge kit. The kit will have everything that you need. You will only need the adapter if you are checking the fuel pressure in-line just after the fuel pump. You wouldn't need it since you will be just checking it from the service port on the fuel rail. The service port looks just like the air valve for you tires.

This should help you out:


TESTING


See Figures 4, 5, 6 and 7






Fig. Fig. 4: Connect the fuel pressure gauge to the fuel rail service valve-3.3L shown






Fig. Fig. 5: Checking the fuel pressure with a gauge-3.5L shown






Fig. Fig. 6: Checking the pressure between the pump and the filter






Fig. Fig. 7: Place the other end of into an approved gasoline container

1.Release the fuel system pressure as described in earlier in this section.
2.Remove the protective cover from the service valve on the fuel rail.
3.Connect fuel pressure gauge to the fuel rail service valve.
4.Place the ignition key in the ON position.
5.If the gauge reading equals the specifications, then further testing is not required. Without vacuum applied to the regulator, the 3.3L engine fuel system operates at 55 psi (379 kPa). With the engine idling and the manifold vacuum applied to the regulator, the system operates at approximately 46 psi (317 kPa). Without vacuum applied to the regulator, the 3.5L engine fuel system operates at 48 psi (331 kPa). With the engine idling and the manifold vacuum applied to the regulator, the system operates at approximately 39 psi (269 kPa). The fuel system pressure varies with the different amounts of manifold vacuum applied to the regulator. If the pressure is not correct, record the pressure and remove the gauge.
6.Ensure that the fuel does not leak from the fuel rail service valve. Install the protective cover onto the fuel rail service valve.
7.If the fuel pressure reading was below the specifications, test the system according to the following procedure:
A.Perform the fuel pressure release procedure.
B.Install a fuel gauge and fuel adapter 6631 or equivalent in the fuel supply line between the tank and the fuel filter.
C..Place the ignition key in the ON position.


8.If the pressure is at least 5 psi (1 kPa) or higher than the reading recorded, replace the fuel filter.
9.If no change is observed, gently squeeze the return hose. If the pressure increases, replace the pressure regulator. If the gauge reading does not change when the return hose is squeezed, the problem is either a plugged inlet strainer or defective fuel pump.
10.If the fuel pressure reading was above the specifications test the system according to the following procedure:
A.Perform the pressure release procedure.
B.Install fuel pressure gauge and adapter 6631 or equivalent in the fuel supply line between the fuel tank and the fuel filter.
C.Remove the fuel return line hose from the pump at the tank. Connect pressure test adapter 6668 or equivalent to the return line. Place the other end of adapter 6668 into an approved gasoline container. A minimum of 2 gallon tank should be sufficient. All return fuel will flow into the container.
D. Place the ignition key in the ON position.

11.If the pressure is now correct, replace the fuel pump.
12.If the pressure is still above specifications, remove the fuel return hose from the chassis fuel tubes (at the engine) and attach fuel pressure test adapter 6668 or equivalent to the return tube. Place the other end of the hose in the clean container, repeat the test. If the pressure is now correct, check for a restricted fuel return line. If there is no change observed, replace the fuel pressure regulator.


2003 Jeep Grand Cherokee my current DD

1995 3.5L Intrepid, Sold in 2010
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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-03-2010, 04:07 PM Thread Starter
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What Does This Tell You?

Went to the Auto Zone, and after plunkng down a $160 reundable deposit, got the Fuel Pressure testing kit.

First, I depressured the system by removing the Gas cap, pulling the fuel fuse, and connecting the fuel prssure device to to testing port.

All that got "spilled" onto the standing by bucket was about 1 tablespoon of gas.

Second, I put the fuel fuse back in, put the gas cap back on. reset the guage to zero, and have a friend turn the key to ON. (the dashboard light up)

The guage the needle jumped to 50 psi then when down to 40 psi then slowly down to 38 psi.

Now, the question is. What does that mean!

The Specks that you sent me said that the "normal" pressure should be 48 psi

So, does 38 psi mean anything?

Or does the problem lie elseware in the fuel system?

P.S. I did try to start it before and after the test. Stater "started" but no engine turn over
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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-04-2010, 12:47 AM
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I'm thinking it's not you fuel system. Just because your pump is priming the system. This is just about your 3.5L not starting right?

1st, did you do the key trick to check for any stored codes? Here's how:

http://www.dodgeintrepid.net/forums/...ead.php?t=9477

2nd, there's alot that can cause a no start issue. Crank sensor, Cam Sensor, ASD Relay, or the timing belt.

Have you pulled the Timing Belt cover to see if the Timing Belt is still on one piece?

I'd check to see if there are any stored codes, and pull the cover and check the timing belt.

I think you pump is just fine, since it primes the system with the key on.

Here's a no-start test that you can do too:


FAILURE-TO-START TEST


See Figure 1

This no-start test checks the camshaft position sensor and the crankshaft position sensor. Refer to the ignition coil tests before commencing with this test, much time may be saved if the problem lies within the coil.

The PCM supplies 8.0 volts to the camshaft position sensor and crankshaft position sensor through one circuit. If the 8.0 volt supply circuit shorts to ground, neither sensor will produce a signal (output voltage to the PCM).

When the ignition key is turned and left in the ON position, the PCM automatically energizes the Auto Shutdown (ASD) relay. However, the PCM de-energizes the relay within one second because it has not received a crankshaft position sensor signal indicating engine rotation.

During cranking, the ASD relay will not energize until the PCM receives a crankshaft signal. Secondly, the ASD relay remains energized only if the PCM senses a camshaft position sensor signal immediately after detecting the crankshaft position sensor signal.

1.Check battery voltage with a voltmeter. Make sure to always attach the positive voltmeter wire to the positive (+) terminal of the component being checked. Do the same with the negative - wire also. Voltage for the battery should be approximately 12.66 volts or higher to perform the failure-to-start test.
2.Unplug the harness connector from the coil pack.
3.Connect a test light (or voltmeter) to the B+ (battery voltage) terminal of the coil electrical connector and ground. The wire for the B+ terminal is dark green with a orange tracer.








Fig. Fig. 1: Attach the 12 volt test light to the B+ (battery voltage) terminal of the coil electrical connector and ground

4.Turn the ignition key to the ON position. The test light should flash on and then off. DO NOT turn the key to the OFF position, leave it in the ON position.
A.If the test light flashes momentarily, the PCM grounded the ASD relay. Proceed to Step 5.
B.If the test light did not flash, the ASD relay did not energize. The cause is either the relay itself or one of the relay circuits. Test the circuits for a ground or open circuit.


5.Crank the engine. If the key was placed in the OFF position after Step 4, turn the ignition to the ON position before cranking the engine. Wait for the test light to flash once, then crank the engine.
A.If the test light momentarily flashes during cranking, the PCM is not receiving a camshaft position sensor signal. Test the camshaft position sensor circuits for a ground or open circuit.

B.If the test light did not flash during cranking, unplug the camshaft position sensor connector. Turn the ignition key to the OFF position. Turn the key to the ON position, wait for the test light to momentarily flash once, then crank the engine. If the test light momentarily flashes, the camshaft position sensor is shorted and must be replaced with a new one. If the light did not flash, the cause of the no-start is in either the crankshaft position sensor/camshaft position sensor 8.0 volt supply circuit, or the crankshaft position sensor 5 volt output or ground circuits.


2003 Jeep Grand Cherokee my current DD

1995 3.5L Intrepid, Sold in 2010

Last edited by Strongt; 02-04-2010 at 12:52 AM.
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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-04-2010, 10:53 AM Thread Starter
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I'm thinking it's not you fuel system



It it was the fuel pump at lease the fix would be somewhat simple. Now I have to start searching for someother answer.

did you do the key trick to check for any stored codes

Since my "Check Engine" light didn't come on I forgot all about seeing if any codes are stored in the computer.

I have to go back (the car is in my friend's parking lot - over 8 miles from where I live) and read the codes. I may go and rent a OSB 2 reader from Auto Zone again since it that method is faster, and easier, to read/use then the Key method. Especially since I tend to overshoot and never get the on/off sequence right.

But, first a question.

If I get the codes, do I have to do the FAILURE-TO-START TEST also? Or if there is a fault in the camshaft position sensor and the crankshaft position sensor will it be recorded by the on board computer?

Have you pulled the Timing Belt cover

I had the belt replaced (after the car stoped moving in the middle of the street) in 2005. And no I didn't pull the cover since I am not that handy around a engine. BTW, I thought if the timing belt broke you should not even try cranking the engine since you can damage the pistons?
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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-04-2010, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dart Boy View Post
I had the belt replaced (after the car stoped moving in the middle of the street) in 2005. And no I didn't pull the cover since I am not that handy around a engine. BTW, I thought if the timing belt broke you should not even try cranking the engine since you can damage the pistons?
On the 1st gen cars (1993-1997) the 3.5 is NOT an interference engine... the 3.5's of newer models ARE interference, along with the 3.2. I THINK the 2.7 is as well.

Last edited by cdmccul; 02-04-2010 at 11:47 AM.
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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-05-2010, 06:32 PM Thread Starter
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What The Codes Show

Braving 32F degree weather I undertook the hour or so bus ride to my car to run a code check.

After some false starts trying to get the off/on sequence right, I obtained the following codes:

12 - 17 - 55

But, now that I have them, they don't seem to point to anything that can explain why my Eagle has stop soaring.

I know 12 is suppose to mean that the battery has been disconnected with-in the last 50 starts. However, the leads have not been disconnected from the battery since February 2008.

Code 17 deciphers as "Engine did not reach operating temperature with-in acceptable limits." What does that mean? Since the engine has not started since January 26, of course the engine never warmed up.

The final code I got was 55, which of course means, "end of codes."

in 2008, when I had my "check engine" light on for almost 6 months before I was able to borrow money to fix it the "service station" scan tool came up with the following codes:

(Told These Were Transmission Related)

PO731A Gear 1 incorrect ratio
PO736 Reverse incorrect ratio
P1784 Manufacture controlled transmission

( Told These Were Emission Related)

P490 Manufacture controlled Auxiliary Emission Control
P0171B Bank 1 system too lean
P0174B Bank 2 system too lean
P0125B Insufficience coolant temperature for close loop


After finally being repaied the check engine light stopped and never returned, except, every one in a while in the 30 days before the car stop starting. It would sometime appear as my gas would get low, and go away the next day. Especially after I put a gallon or 2 into the car. But, how important can that be? I thought the car's OBD system records all these faults. How can there be a fault one day and not the next?

Plus, can oil be the problem? I had a look at the dipstick and only the very tip showed any oil.

Or that there is no coolent in the overflow tank?

At this point it could be either an $1 fix or a $10,000 one

If this is not solved soon, then I have to clip this Eagle's wings for good.
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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-06-2010, 12:37 AM
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Yeah code 12 and 55 are normal. And code 17 is not going to cause the engine not to start. I posted that I thought the fuel pump was ok, was becuse you have pressure when you turn the key on.

The only thing next I would do if it was me, would be to swap the ASD Relay with a good one. Like the Wiper Relay. The relay's in the black relay box next to the Batt. can all be swaped around. There should be a label under the relay box cover that will say whats what. You us swap out the ASD Relay with a known good one and she still doesn't start. Then it be looking at the timing belt next to see if the belt still in one piece.

Sorry, this is the best I can tell you because I'm not there. If you have a socket set you just need to unscrew a few of the bolts on the passenger side cover that hold one half of the timing cover on. Then you can just look inside to see the belt.

It sucks the the car is not with you.


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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-07-2010, 10:58 AM Thread Starter
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would be to swap the ASD Relay with a good one

I assume by ASD you mean "Automatic ShutDown?"

I looked it up in my Parts Manual and its listed as pert #4638-094. Also, it seems that this same part number is also for other relay. Can I just move one of them to the ASD position? Ot by doing so I may stop another part of the system from working?

And, I I do need to by one, can I get them from a place like PepBoys or NAPA and not have to go to a Chrysler/Dodge dealer? Which, where I live, are few and nowhere near where I live.

Doing some futher reading I have found at the Allpar.com website that such a problem like mine can be due to a bad MAP sensor. And that by unpluging it I could get the car to start. What's you take on this as being a possible answer?

Plus, if it does turn out to be something as simple as this relay, what could have cause it. Does it point to something else that is wrong? Or is it one of those parts that "just dies" and nothing can be done to prevent it?

Then it be looking at the timing belt next to see if the belt still in one piece.

The reason I am so resistance to the idea that the problem is the Timing Belt is that it was replaced, along with the water pump, just 5 years ago last November. And I just can't see how the new one failed after only 37000 miles while the original lasted 9 years and 61000 miles!

you just need to unscrew a few of the bolts on the passenger side cover

I have read the service manual on doing this, and it seems harder then just "unscrew a few..." The manual talks about "draining the coolant," and "removing the accessory drive belts," follow by crankshaft damper using special tools. All of which seems to be far beyond what you wrote..

It sucks the the car is not with you.

Well, because of that I will be unable to try the relay swap till Tuesday. I hope that it is something so simple and cheep(?). At lease a running car is worth more to sell then one that has to be towed to its new owner.

I'll let you know the verdict

Last edited by Dart Boy; 02-07-2010 at 03:39 PM. Reason: more questions
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-07-2010, 03:56 PM
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You can us a relay from like the Wiper system. Just don't pull the one for the fuel pump, because the car will not start.

As for looking at the timing belt, I really is just a few bolts that hold the cover on. You are not removeing the belt and water pump, so you don't need to drain the coolant or anything. You would just be looking under the timing cover. It just a cover for the timing belt.

As for changing the timing belt thats real easy too. Alot of members on here have done it a few times. I myshelf have done it twice already.


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1995 3.5L Intrepid, Sold in 2010
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-08-2010, 10:28 AM Thread Starter
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You can us a relay from like the Wiper system.

I'll Buy a new one anyways just to make sure that its a good one. For with my luck the wiper relay will decide to break just as I transfer it.

I really is just a few bolts that hold the cover on

I don't mean to keep harping on this point, but, excatly what bolts do I remove so I can have a peek inside? Can you give me a drawing or something?

As for changing the timing belt thats real easy too

Not the way it is shown in the service manual.

But, if it does turn out to be the timing belt I now can go to a service center and tell them excatly what to do with-out be charged a diagnose.fee. But, again one more question, the last time this happen the water pump was replaced. Does the water pump HAVE to be replaced with the timing belt? I can aford to do just the belt, but, not both the belt and the pump. Or just maybe, if it the belt, can the water pumb be the cause?

Will let you know the outcome Tuesday night.
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 02-10-2010, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
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The Eagle Has Landed - Forever

Will let you know the outcome Tuesday night.

So, Its Wednesday Morning!

Yesterday I took another trip to my Vision and swapped out the old ASD relay for the new one. Got behind the wheel, said a little prayer, and turn the key. No change! The starter started, the belts turned, but the engine would not turn over.

So, with nothing to loose, I removed the top 4 screws from the timing belt housing and peeked it. From what I can see the belt is intact and is still snaked around the camshafts and the other shafts as well.

At this point I have given up.

Since I am unemployed, I can't afford to do both a search and repair hunt on the car and get it ready to pass my state's inspection. The best I can do is to sell it (for parts?) and combine that money with some savings to purchase a cheep car that will keep me going till I get a job



As for what I want to get? I would prefer something from Chrysler, but, if the price is right (sub $1000) I am open to anything.

Know anyone who wants to sell their recalled Toyota for such a price?

But, seriously, thanks for the help, just too bad that the Vision is beyond (simple/cheep) repairs
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