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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-09-2016, 04:35 PM Thread Starter
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2001 R-2.7L - Spring Project Planning (Questions/Concerns)

First the details:
- 2001 Dodge Intrepid ES (I Believe) R-Series 2.7L - EDIT: You know, it might be an SE. How would I tell, I can't seem to locate it anywhere on the body. Maybe the emblem fell off?
- Bought it with ~140k, currently at 153k
- I am the third owner. I'm told the first owner was an older couple that took great care of it. The girl I bought it from also claims to have taken really good care of it and it went to the shop everytime the check engine light came on.
- I have no idea if the water pump/timing chain(s) have ever been replaced and didn't know how important it was for this vehicle when I purchased it.
- I changed the oil the day I got it home (even though she said she just had it done. I found a quart of wal-mart oil in the trunk and it scared me) and every 3k miles since then. I've used only full-syn high-mileage oil with an XL filter (my local autozone loves seeing me walk through their doors LMAO!)
- So far, I've replaced the spark plugs (not the coil-on-plugs though), water outlet housing, upper and lower radiator hoses and the radiator (not the fan shroud or transmission cooler, just the radiator). I also replaced one of the PCM hoses that was in very bad shape with a section of rubber tubing and some clamps (no one had the exact part I needed :P)
- Vehicle is driven almost 90 miles a day M-F and sits most weekends.
- Occasionally, the CEL comes on. I finally caught it on one day and took it straight to autozone -- It's throwing a P0601 which I understand is a PCM issue so that is on the board for replacement also.
- I expect to do some repairs when buying a used car but this guy is wearing me out lol

BACKSTORY:

Hey, I was here not to long ago with some questions/concerns about the water pump replacement. Turns out it was just the outlet housing at that time, easy fix and on the road again thanks to some help from this forum, otherwise I would have done the water pump and timing chain and still had a problem!

I had yet another cooling issue and I thought for sure it was the pump that time. Turned out to be a bad hose. Replaced upper and lower hoses. While bleeding the system, I discovered the hose was just a symptom of the radiator being weak. With pressure built up and nowhere left to escape, the radiator gave out. Ran to the store and bought a new radiator.

After missing work on a friday and spending all that day and the rest of the weekend working on the car (seriously, the hardest part was the lower radiator hose -- WTF!?), I am on the road again for a month or two now.

So here I am with winter approaching and I know my luck. If this car lasts the season (really trying not to be pessimistic), I'm going to need to do the water pump. I would love to see the mileage on this car double but I don't have the time or money to do the project now.

WATER PUMP QUESTIONS/Misc

When I initially joined the forums, I had already ordered an Evergreen water pump and timing chain replacement kit from Amazon. Thankfully that wasn't the issue because I later learned that it came with the old style pump so I returned it and replaced the outlet housing as mentioned above.

Now, I'm re-entering the research phase for the water pump. I've read so many posts and stuff on this-forum-and-that, that I have so much contradicting information.

I did locate this post (dodgeintrepid.net/18-general-discussion-second-generation/202495-quality-new-mopar-timing-chain-water-pump-kit-2.html#post1785739 - Quality of New Mopar Timing chain/water pump Kit - Post 16) That guy has a '00 Intrepid 2.7L. Unfortunately, checking stevewhiteparts.com and just about everywhere else, the prices have gone up quite a bit. Namely, the oil pump which I hadn't even considered replacing originally.

Can anyone help me confirm if those are the correct part numbers for my vehicle and would it be recommended to replace all of that or could I get away with skipping the oil pump or anything else?

Part #s
4792443AB TENSIONER
4892425AA WATER PUMP SMALL PITCH GEAR (COMES WITH THIN METAL GASKET)
4792005AC TIMING COVER GASKET
4663618 TIMING COVER CRANK SEAL
68036788AB TIMING CHAIN KIT WITH SMALL PITCH GEARS AND GUIDES
4663745AC OIL PUMP
4792068 O-RING SEAL FOE OIL PUMP

That all adds up to $522.35 currently @ stevewhiteparts.com which is a whopping $300 more than I was paying for the kit on Amazon before and $100-$150 more than I told my wife to expect . Which leads to my next question; Is Evergreen OEM? When I google some of the part numbers, I come up with Evergreen parts and I can't tell if they included the OEM part number to make it easier to find cheaper alternatives or if they're genuine. If they're not OEM, any idea how trustworthy they are?

Don't get me wrong, I will pay OEM prices when it is needed. But, if I can save a few bucks buying after market on a not so important part, I would be overjoyed.

Additionally, does anyone know of a trustworthy kit that includes all I want to do and isn't going to come with the old style pump and chains?

Should I bother with the chains? I of course can't tell if they're in bad shape until I tear it down and I don't want to tear it down until I have the parts I need on hand. Sure the labor is the same chains or not but the price is significantly different.

I'm sure I'll have more questions, thankfully I have the replacement procedure down by owning the FSM and having access to these forums (actually better and more descriptive than the FSM, IMO)



Also, this vehicle seems to be VERY loud. I've researched this and have learned that the '01 can be very noisy due to a lack of soundproofing against road noise. But the loudness in my case is coming from the engine. It's so loud that I call it my 60 mph car because any speed greater than that is almost deafening. Is this normal or indicating another issue?

It of course loses oil and transmission fluid (is this every Dodge? our Caravan did it too before the tranny died because I was an idiot and used stop leak on it but thats another project for the distant future)

Last edited by JJerrell; 10-09-2016 at 05:24 PM. Reason: Edited several times because I forgot stuff
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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-09-2016, 07:10 PM
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2001 with a 2.7L engine should be an SE. It was only 1998-2000 Intrepids that had a "Base" ES model with the 2.7L. Possibly someone took the SE badges off.

What kind of wheels are on the car? Aluminum Alloys or Steel Wheels with Plastic wheel covers (Hub Caps)?


For all the Timing Chain info Daytrepper or Peva will be able to answer those questions.
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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-09-2016, 07:15 PM
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And buying a Craptermarket Water Pump is false economy! That "Evergreen" brand you keep mentioning is probably Crap. Save a few $$$ and grenade the engine or spend a little more and buy decent parts that will help your engine continue on for many more miles.

Your research if you did much should show that the Water Pump and Timing Chain Tensioner should be OEM Dealer only. The rest of the parts you can skate buy on aftermarket.
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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-09-2016, 10:06 PM
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You already replaced the coolant outlet housing - proof that it is a 2.7.

I can't cover everything at this time, but here is are some basic guidelines (my opinions, others are of course free to disagree):

You could re-use your old chain and chain tensioner arm and guides with little risk (unless there are unusual conditions that you know about or discover).

Probably little risk to re-use the oil pump.

Replace the chain tensioner.

Replace the water pump and gasket.

Use only OEM parts for the water pump (and gasket) and tensioner (and chain if you do replace that). Ebay is fine from actual Chrysler dealers with high feedback - some savings there. There are sellers selling new-old stock (AKA NOS) - a little grayer - they may be brokers having bought from a dealer liquidating old inventory. Difficult to vet, slightly higher risk (lots of sales with very high feedback ratings helps lower that risk).

I don't know if the dealers still can get the original coarser-pitch parts (chain and all sprockets, i.e., water pump, cam, and crank sprockets). If they do still have those, then you can do what I advised. If they do not sell the coarse-pitch parts anymore, then you would have no choice but to replace the chain and use a kit that has the cam sprockets, plus (either separately or as part of an OEM kit), the water pump.

As you may have seen in other threads, I didn't do any of that until 207k miles. I replaced my oil pump because mine is a '99, and they upgraded the pump sometime in the '99 model year with a plug-n-play larger-capacity pump. I can't honestly say if I would or would not have replaced it at the time if not for that. I had the money at the time, so I went all the way with oil pump and newer-design fine-pitch sprockets. Getting the new-design OEM water pump and gasket is way more important than going to the fine-pitch sprockets.

Of all that I've said, the single most important point is to use only OEM parts for the water pump and gasket (and chain if replaced) - period.

Oh - and replace the front main seal - easy - it presses out of and into the timing cover. Seal the bottom of the timing cover to the front of the oil pan with RTV per the FSM procedure.

I highly recommend the aftermarket timing chain tensioner arm stop block as insurance against the tensioner failing - around $35 IIRC (ebay), easy install. Risk of aftermarket tensioner failing is very high, but risk of new OEM tensioner failing is not zero over a couple hundred thousand miles.

As far as oil leaking, besides front oil seal and timing cover-to-oil pan RTV, common leak point is oil pressure switch - look for dripping from it and its connector. If leaking, OEM part only for this part (aftermarkets are often way out of calibration as far as low-pressure light trip point). Other possible areas: Valve cover gaskets (should replace anyway when doing water pump, etc. - OEM or Felpro), rear main seal (OEM or Felpro), oil pan gasket (OEM or Felpro). Easy to do valve cover gaskets, front main seal, and oil pressure switch with water pump, etc. work. Rear main seal and oil pan gasket, more of a PITA - only do if proven leaking if the leaks bother you (any leaks bother me - YMMV).


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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-10-2016, 09:33 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronbo View Post
2001 with a 2.7L engine should be an SE. It was only 1998-2000 Intrepids that had a "Base" ES model with the 2.7L. Possibly someone took the SE badges off.

What kind of wheels are on the car? Aluminum Alloys or Steel Wheels with Plastic wheel covers (Hub Caps)?
Definitely an SE. I wasn't looking hard enough yesterday. Found an emblem on the rear passenger side door panel.

The wheels are aluminum alloys that I took off of our old caravan because it had pretty much new tires on it. I still have the steel wheels but the alloys look much nicer on it. Do you think I might be wrong and this is causing the noise when I'm going over 60?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronbo View Post
And buying a Craptermarket Water Pump is false economy! That "Evergreen" brand you keep mentioning is probably Crap. Save a few $$$ and grenade the engine or spend a little more and buy decent parts that will help your engine continue on for many more miles.

Your research if you did much should show that the Water Pump and Timing Chain Tensioner should be OEM Dealer only. The rest of the parts you can skate buy on aftermarket.
Water Pump/Tensioner - OEM, thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peva View Post
You could re-use your old chain and chain tensioner arm and guides with little risk (unless there are unusual conditions that you know about or discover).

Probably little risk to re-use the oil pump.

Replace the chain tensioner.

Replace the water pump and gasket.

Use only OEM parts for the water pump (and gasket) and tensioner (and chain if you do replace that). Ebay is fine from actual Chrysler dealers with high feedback - some savings there. There are sellers selling new-old stock (AKA NOS) - a little grayer - they may be brokers having bought from a dealer liquidating old inventory. Difficult to vet, slightly higher risk (lots of sales with very high feedback ratings helps lower that risk).

I don't know if the dealers still can get the original coarser-pitch parts (chain and all sprockets, i.e., water pump, cam, and crank sprockets). If they do still have those, then you can do what I advised. If they do not sell the coarse-pitch parts anymore, then you would have no choice but to replace the chain and use a kit that has the cam sprockets, plus (either separately or as part of an OEM kit), the water pump.
Perfect, so long as I can find a water pump with the updated gasket, heavier build and coarse-pitch, I'll re-use the chain and oil pump, but replace the tensioner

Otherwise, I'll be prepared to shell out some cash for the full kit -- I would honestly prefer this method as the labor is more or less the same and I can sleep a little more peacefully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peva View Post
As you may have seen in other threads, I didn't do any of that until 207k miles. I replaced my oil pump because mine is a '99, and they upgraded the pump sometime in the '99 model year with a plug-n-play larger-capacity pump. I can't honestly say if I would or would not have replaced it at the time if not for that. I had the money at the time, so I went all the way with oil pump and newer-design fine-pitch sprockets. Getting the new-design OEM water pump and gasket is way more important than going to the fine-pitch sprockets.
I've definitely seen that in other posts and it does give me a little comfort. My concern is, I replaced pretty much the whole cooling system except the water pump. After all that work, I still have to add coolant every 3-7 days. I honestly haven't looked at the lower weep hole but I know that has to be where it is coming from because of were I see the coolant drip from when I look under the car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peva View Post
I highly recommend the aftermarket timing chain tensioner arm stop block as insurance against the tensioner failing - around $35 IIRC (ebay), easy install. Risk of aftermarket tensioner failing is very high, but risk of new OEM tensioner failing is not zero over a couple hundred thousand miles.
After all I've read, I wouldn't do the job without putting the stop block on it. That thing sounds like a life saver. If I had no fears of needing to replace anything behind the timing chain cover, I would atleast look in to adding one of those to it. I've never had a timing chain break on one of my vehicle *knock on wood* but it happened to my highschool girlfriends car and its a shame to see an otherwise perfect vehicle turn into a hunk of metal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by peva View Post
As far as oil leaking, besides front oil seal and timing cover-to-oil pan RTV, common leak point is oil pressure switch - look for dripping from it and its connector. If leaking, OEM part only for this part (aftermarkets are often way out of calibration as far as low-pressure light trip point). Other possible areas: Valve cover gaskets (should replace anyway when doing water pump, etc. - OEM or Felpro), rear main seal (OEM or Felpro), oil pan gasket (OEM or Felpro). Easy to do valve cover gaskets, front main seal, and oil pressure switch with water pump, etc. work. Rear main seal and oil pan gasket, more of a PITA - only do if proven leaking if the leaks bother you (any leaks bother me - YMMV).
The oil/transmission leak does bother me but I check the fluids religiously to make sure the oil doesn't take on the dreaded milky appearance so I definitely have other things higher on the priority list. But thank you for all the pointers, I'll definitely check those areas next time I'm under the car.

Last edited by JJerrell; 10-10-2016 at 12:52 PM.
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-10-2016, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peva View Post
...I highly recommend the aftermarket timing chain tensioner arm stop block as insurance against the tensioner failing - around $35 IIRC (ebay), easy install. Risk of aftermarket tensioner failing is very high, but risk of new OEM tensioner failing is not zero over a couple hundred thousand miles...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJerrell View Post
...After all I've read, I wouldn't do the job without putting the stop block on it. That thing sounds like a life saver. If I had no fears of needing to replace anything behind the timing chain cover, I would atleast look in to adding one of those to it. I've never had a timing chain break on one of my vehicle *knock on wood* but it happened to my highschool girlfriends car and its a shame to see an otherwise perfect vehicle turn into a hunk of metal...
Just to clarify, the main reason for the stop block is in case of a tensioner failure. You're right - very small chance of chain breaking all on its own. Chance of OEM tensioner early failure is small - main risk is OEM tensioner failure after it has a lot of miles on it.
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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 08:26 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you both for your replies. Good news for my car, the full timing kit, tensioner and water pump are on their way.

I feel less and less comfortable waiting until spring because the winter we're supposed to get

If anyone is curious, the invoice came to 530 and some change with shipping.

I'm going to start on it next weekend hopefully. Can anyone chime in on the expected shop hours for this job? I'm just a backyard mechanic and I work in IT for a living so I'm sure it will take longer, just looking for a ballpark.

Also that store didn't stock the stop block so I'll be ordering that separately today.

I have the FSM so I'll study that, the sticky here and videos until I start the job. That being said, I'm open to any advise you guys might have.


Also, revisiting the noise; are we thinking it's from the tires and lack of soundproofing or could it be my water pump failing causing it to hum or something else?

Thanks again. Sorry for writing a book again


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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 12:47 PM Thread Starter
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I've been reviewing the quote I was provided and I believe they have the wrong part number for the timing kit. Can anyone confirm?

I was given part number: 68036787AB -- The tensioner and water pump appear to be the correct part numbers.

Timing Chain Kit: 68036787AB (appears to be incompatible)
Water Pump: 4892425AA
Tensioner: 4792443AB
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 01:04 PM
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Over the last 5 or 6 years, they've created bundled kits with different parts - I believe some contain the water pump, some do not, some are for the original chain design, some are to convert the timing system over to the LX-platform finer pitch chain and sprockets, so it's hard to know what each kit is in those regards. Do you know if the chain kit contains the cam and crank sprockets? If so, it probably converts over to the new fine-pitch chain. I think I said before that it would not surprise me if they discontinued the older chain design parts and therefore force you to convert. It wouldn't surprise me either way.

Tell us everything you know about the chain kit. What's supposed to be in it? Again, if cam and crank sprockets are in it, it is probably conversion to the new chain design. If so, year would matter, because the driver's side cam sprocket has a different cam position sensor hole pattern in it for pre-'02 and '02 and up. What in particular makes you suspect that the kit you ordered is incompatible?

Our cars do let a little bit of tire noise into the passenger compartment. That's why I switched to touring tires several years ago. But if you're hearing humming, consider that it may be a worn out wheel bearing - usually front, but the rears have been known to go bad too. They are especially suspect if the noise gets quieter or noisier when you turn towards the right or towards the left at highway speed as if you're making a quick lane change.

If the pitch of the noise is road speed related, it's most likely tires or wheel bearings. If more engine speed related, then - yeah - look to some drive train component.


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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-12-2016, 01:17 PM Thread Starter
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It is definitely a kit to update to the finer sprockets. Has cam and crank sprockets in it. Does not include a tensioner or water pump.

The main factor that I'm worried about is: if I lookup the part number on ebay or something and plug in my cars info to check for compatibility, it says it is not compatible. I understand it may just be a technicality issue but I would hate to find out its wrong when I'm trying to put it on and it doesn't fit or something.

I'll pay attention to the sound on my way home. The only thing that is really noticeable is an increase of speed over 60mph but I'll try a quick lane change at 65 to see what I hear. I can definitely feel it on the driver side floorboard so I'm guessing drive train. It's possible that I'm just too picky and paranoid about something breaking lol


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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-13-2016, 01:29 PM Thread Starter
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Okay, most of my concerns are addressed and everything including the stop block have been ordered.

I'm only finding guides or videos for the chain and water pump replacement. Does anyone know of a guide or video that does the full upgrade? Kind of nervous about replacing the cams and everything

Thanks again,
Jay


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I do believe that the cam tone wheel hole pattern was changed after 2001. The descriptions on that kit say it is for a post-LH platform which means it's the later design tone wheel. I don't know if the tone wheels are easily swapped between the sprockets or not. If so, you could do that. If not, then it would be a problem. For swapping in the new crank sprocket, you'll need a puller with the rod-type push bolt so as not to mess up the female threads of the crankshaft snout. I used the rod-type push bolt of a damper pulley puller installed in a pitman arm puller - fortunately many puller push bolts use the same thread size and pitch and are interchangeable between pullers.


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Last edited by peva; 10-14-2016 at 02:13 AM.
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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-17-2016, 04:03 PM Thread Starter
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Just an update. The project is well underway and way ahead of schedule. On my way home Thursday, I heard the chain rattling almost the whole way. I was only hearing it when accelerating between 3rd and 4th gear. So I decided to stop driving it and start the work.

I spent all day Friday and Saturday morning tearing it down (had a couple hiccups). Just after pulling the water pump and inspecting everything for a few minutes, the mail lady came around back and handed me the package. Good timing, I thought I was done for the weekend!!!

Judging by the looks of everything, if it wasn't the original water pump, it was replaced shortly after purchase. Original gaskets and build. I know someone had been in there because they used white silicon to help seal the timing cover. Can't tell what they did, the wear on everything definitely looked like 150k miles and the tensioner was definitely approaching failure. Lots of play in the chain and the tensioner looked awful.

My stop block was delivered today. Not sure if I'll have time to finish it in the evenings this week. Will probably put her back together next weekend. Already having withdrawals from the trep, that's probably because I'm driving my inlaws buick regal and it is not in good shape

Thanks for all the help!!


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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-17-2016, 04:11 PM Thread Starter
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Also, changing the crank shaft sprocket needs to be outlined before anyone else dives into this job. It requires a torch or a special tool. The tool is pretty expensive for someone that will only use it once and heating it with a torch sounds like a bad idea and I'm afraid it would weaken the sprocket.

I rented a 36mm socket thinking I would just hammer it on. That didn't go very far. Currently we're working on a home made installation tool with a large 3/4 drive socket, a long bolt that matches the thread and thickness of the original bolt, and a nut. Wish me luck!! I'm open to any other suggestions if possible. None of the auto stores near by have that tool available for rent


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...
Quote:
Originally Posted by peva View Post
...For swapping in the new crank sprocket, you'll need a puller with the rod-type push bolt so as not to mess up the female threads of the crankshaft snout. I used the rod-type push bolt of a damper pulley puller installed in a pitman arm puller - fortunately many puller push bolts use the same thread size and pitch and are interchangeable between pullers.
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