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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 07:56 AM Thread Starter
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Antifreeze and Oil Leak

Alright, I just replaced the water pump and main timing chain + components in my 02 2.7L SE.

So far, I've replaced the radiator, hoses, water outlet housing and water pump. Everytime I fix one problem in the cooling system, the next component down the line starts showing problems.

Now, I've noticed in the past couple of weeks since finishing the job that I lose about a quart of oil per week and around the same amount of antifreeze.

So I tracked it down yesterday. It seems to be coming from the place where the lower radiator hose connects to the engine behind the alternator and another hose that I assume runs to the heater core.

Replacing that doesn't look too difficult and I'm sure it's a failed o ring or something simple. The thing that scares me is that in the puddle the car makes, there is roughly equal parts oil to antifreeze.

I thought that I may have a leak from the valve cover or elsewhere and its just coincidence that they both drip to the same puddle. This doesn't seem to be the case after inspection. I'm 95% sure oil is leaking from that port.

This makes me fear that I didn't tighten the water pump tight enough and oil is running into that area from the top. I've continued to check my oil religiously and it doesn't appear that I'm getting antifreeze in my oil. But I am definitely getting oil in my antifreeze.

Is there anywhere else that could let oil in but not vice versa?

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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 09:14 AM
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When you changed the water pump, did you remove the old gasket?

Is it possible that the oil is coming from the joint between the timing cover and the block?

For the coolant, if the water pump leaks, the leakage is ported to an outlet hole in the cover that you mention that the lower radiator hose connects to. BTW - that is the thermostat cover, AKA thermostat housing.

The small, short hose connects to a metal pipe that is the bypass system that returns coolant to the engine from the heater core and the coolant reservoir.

If that area wasn't leaking before, and you didn't disturb it when you replaced the chain and water pump, then it's likely that the coolant is leaking from the weep hole port due to a problem with the water pump. That's why I asked if you removed the old water pump gasket - or did it get left in place. Something like that could explain both coolant and oil leaks.

It's important to determine where exactly the coolant and oil are leaking from. Again, I'm thinking the coolant is coming from the weep hole port in the thermostat housing, and the oil is coming from the timing cover-block gasket interface.


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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 09:36 AM
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I just re-read your thread about replacing the chain and water pump. You do mention there that you had a significant water leak before. Perhaps the leak you're seeing was there before and not related to problems created during the work you did. If so, the likely source of the coolant leak is the thermostat housing gasket, or that small, short rubber hose has a hole in it or has come loose from either end - OR - the metal pipe has a corrosion leak, which has happened to a few others.

Too many unknowns right now to say for certain what exactly is going on, but, again, clean everything off and determine exactly where the coolant and oil are coming from. Strange if oil has actually gotten in your coolant and is not a separate leak. And hopefully you can say with certainty that you removed the old water pump gasket.


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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 10:05 AM Thread Starter
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I just re-read your thread about replacing the chain and water pump. You do mention there that you had a significant water leak before. Perhaps the leak you're seeing was there before and not related to problems created during the work you did. If so, the likely source of the coolant leak is the thermostat housing gasket, or that small, short rubber hose has a hole in it or has come loose from either end - OR - the metal pipe has a corrosion leak, which has happened to a few others.

Too many unknowns right now to say for certain what exactly is going on, but, again, clean everything off and determine exactly where the coolant and oil are coming from. Strange if oil has actually gotten in your coolant and is not a separate leak. And hopefully you can say with certainty that you removed the old water pump gasket.
The gasket came off in its entirety with the water pump. It was the old style gasket and was pretty rotted. There was none left behind on the block, I thoroughly cleaned that area before reassembly.

I'll get under there and clean everything up. I'll not rule out the possibility that oil is leaking from the cover but I did clean that very well because whoever took it apart before, used silicon on the cover instead of a new gasket. The only reason that I doubt it is the cause of this oil spot is because the oil spot is dead center of the antifreeze drip

I'll try to get some pics up in a bit

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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-12-2016, 10:50 AM Thread Starter
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The spot in the picture isn't really representative of the amount that is leaking. The puddle is much larger and better shows the ratio after the vehicle has been driven for a while. This leak is from moving the car about 10 feet and sitting for around an hour.

It looks like two separate leaks because there is an oil drip to the bottom of the puddle and another towards the top. But they are coming from the same general area. The leak chooses two paths -- I'm assuming that its a pretty significant leak and will be pretty obvious when I pull the part off.

I'm still bothered by the fact that oil is in there and undoubtedly means more work than just replacing the thermostat/housing. Given the area, I guess it is possible that oil is leaking somewhere directly above that and is truly a coincidence.

If it is the weep hole on the thermostat housing, does that mean that something is wrong with the water pump? Or is it more likely that the next week spot in the cooling system (thermostat) is just revealing itself? The latter seems more likely because of the repair path I've followed so far. Hopefully I don't have to screw with the heater core next. Smh

Thanks Peva!
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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 10:45 AM
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Look like a drop of coolant hangout by the top clamp, on the left side of bottom picture, where it connects to that pipe with rust on it.
The oil its kinda hard to tell. Might need to degrease the engine, and then run it in place for a while..
but coolant leak is more of an issue then the oil, that's just free rustproofing ;)



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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 12:43 PM
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I agree with Shawn.

And - yes - two separate leaks - probably a good thing.

Water leak could be hose, hose clamp, or pinhole rusted in the metal pipe (probably not the thermostat housing gasket - and BTW - that thermostat is a PITA to R&R - alternator is in the way, and it is packed in there like a Rubik's cube).

The heater core would have nothing to do with the water leak you're seeing.

Oil - might be power steering or transmission fluid (although that might tend to be more red than what I see there) - that's either p.s. or transmission cooler lines in your photos - I'm thinking p.s. Could be simple valve cover gasket issue - either bad gasket or gasket not put back in proper place on re-assembly from timing chain/water pump job. Did you replace valve cover gaskets with new?

As Shawn and I said: Spray everything off down to clean metal to better see the source of the oil leak.

One other possibility - if your PCV valve gets clogged, the crankcase will pressurize and blow oil out wherever it can - especially out the top of the engine oil dipstick tube.


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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-14-2016, 09:13 PM
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 08:59 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peva View Post
I agree with Shawn.

And - yes - two separate leaks - probably a good thing.

Water leak could be hose, hose clamp, or pinhole rusted in the metal pipe (probably not the thermostat housing gasket - and BTW - that thermostat is a PITA to R&R - alternator is in the way, and it is packed in there like a Rubik's cube).
I haven't had a chance to get under there. Aside from adding a bit of antifreeze every couple of days, the vehicle is in great shape. I'll crawl around and clean up this weekend. I definitely agree now that it is two separate leaks... Thankfully. I'm not certain this is the issue but I am going to go ahead and replace the thermostat and housing -- the parts are pretty cheap and I'm sure it's never been done before.

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The heater core would have nothing to do with the water leak you're seeing.
Nah that was just my attempt at sarcasm because I've literally been replacing the cooling system from front to back and that seems like the next logical fail point after I fix this leak.

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Originally Posted by peva View Post
Oil - might be power steering or transmission fluid (although that might tend to be more red than what I see there) - that's either p.s. or transmission cooler lines in your photos - I'm thinking p.s. Could be simple valve cover gasket issue - either bad gasket or gasket not put back in proper place on re-assembly from timing chain/water pump job. Did you replace valve cover gaskets with new?
I'm very certain that it is oil, all other fluids are staying perfectly level. I haven't felt any oil leaking from the valve cover(s) but I did not replace the gaskets because they seemed to be in good shape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peva View Post
As Shawn and I said: Spray everything off down to clean metal to better see the source of the oil leak.
I'll do that this weekend and if everything looks good, I'll consider replacing the valve cover gaskets

Quote:
Originally Posted by peva View Post
One other possibility - if your PCV valve gets clogged, the crankcase will pressurize and blow oil out wherever it can - especially out the top of the engine oil dipstick tube.
Possibly, I have replaced all of the PCV valves because they were very clogged and literally fell apart when I pulled them off. A couple of them were replaced with standard heater hose because the local store didn't have a direct replacement. It is possible that one of them is pinched or something but the outside of the dipstick seems clean. Definitely worth a closer look while I'm in there though.

Thanks again!
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 12:57 PM
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OK - I get it on the sarcasm. We never assume the level of knowledge of posters - even among ourselves. You just never know.

Again - the thermostat is a bi - umm - a PITA to R&R. Highly recommended to use OEM from the Chrysler dealer, and new gasket.

The gaskets on the valve covers are actually pretty good. Unless you prove they are leaking, you could save yourself some work by leaving them alone. BTW - did we say to clean the engine off to see where the leak is? (<< sarcasm).

"Possibly, I have replaced all of the PCV valves because they were very clogged and literally fell apart when I pulled them off. A couple of them were replaced with standard heater hose because the local store didn't have a direct replacement."

I think you meant heater hoses (or is this more sarcasm going over my head?). But the PCV valve itself needs to be replaced. On that particular part, I recommend aftermarket - I've seen problems on the OEM one for these cars. As far as the hoses, I experimented with a bunch of aftermarket hoses, and found nothing to hold up very long at all - heater hose in particular - they can't take the combination of oil, caustic fumes, and heat.

Here is the definitive solution to get OEM hose for the PCV - works for 2.7 or 3,2/3.5 - been proven out several times by myself and others - post no. 2 here: PCV Hose for an 03? The dealer is going to want to sell you the hose *with* heat exchanger for well north of a C-note. That post will get you the hose you need without the heat exchanger for under $20.

Genuine Chrysler part for under $15, and free shipping:
chrysler 4663961 | eBay


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Last edited by peva; 11-15-2016 at 01:00 PM.
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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 08:53 AM Thread Starter
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OK - I get it on the sarcasm. We never assume the level of knowledge of posters - even among ourselves. You just never know.

Again - the thermostat is a bi - umm - a PITA to R&R. Highly recommended to use OEM from the Chrysler dealer, and new gasket.

The gaskets on the valve covers are actually pretty good. Unless you prove they are leaking, you could save yourself some work by leaving them alone. BTW - did we say to clean the engine off to see where the leak is? (<< sarcasm).

"Possibly, I have replaced all of the PCV valves because they were very clogged and literally fell apart when I pulled them off. A couple of them were replaced with standard heater hose because the local store didn't have a direct replacement."

I think you meant heater hoses (or is this more sarcasm going over my head?). But the PCV valve itself needs to be replaced. On that particular part, I recommend aftermarket - I've seen problems on the OEM one for these cars. As far as the hoses, I experimented with a bunch of aftermarket hoses, and found nothing to hold up very long at all - heater hose in particular - they can't take the combination of oil, caustic fumes, and heat.

Here is the definitive solution to get OEM hose for the PCV - works for 2.7 or 3,2/3.5 - been proven out several times by myself and others - post no. 2 here: PCV Hose for an 03? The dealer is going to want to sell you the hose *with* heat exchanger for well north of a C-note. That post will get you the hose you need without the heat exchanger for under $20.

Genuine Chrysler part for under $15, and free shipping:
chrysler 4663961 | eBay
That's great, thank you! Yes, I used heater hose to replace two of those sections (the one from the coolant recovery tank was still in good shape). I felt them this morning and you're correct, they are already getting soft and sticky.

I have not replaced the PCV Valve -- That's the piece that screws into the upper air intake (hopefully that's the correct name), and the hose from the heat exchange connects to it, right?

I still haven't had a chance to clean it up... I leave the house at 6:30a and it's dark by the time I get home. I'll get under there and sort it out this weekend.

Sorry about the sarcasm, I fear my ignorance has shown a little here. At any rate, 'PCV Valve' was a typo on my part... I meant to type hoses

Sorry to keep bugging you guys!
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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 12:24 PM
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That's great, thank you! Yes, I used heater hose to replace two of those sections (the one from the coolant recovery tank was still in good shape). I felt them this morning and you're correct, they are already getting soft and sticky.

I have not replaced the PCV Valve -- That's the piece that screws into the upper air intake (hopefully that's the correct name), and the hose from the heat exchange connects to it, right?
Correct. Upper intake is also called the plenum. There's also a PCV-related hose - called the crankcase vent hose - from the passenger side valve cover to the intake tube. It also gets hard and brittle. OEM is the way to go on that one - should be still available - no clever tricks involved - very inexpensive.

Quote:
...Sorry about the sarcasm, I fear my ignorance has shown a little here. At any rate, 'PCV Valve' was a typo on my part... I meant to type hoses

Sorry to keep bugging you guys!
No problem with the sarcasm or anything else. We're here for *YOU*!
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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 12:59 PM Thread Starter
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Just wanted to give an update; The source of the oil leak is the driver side valve cover... and possibly the timing chain cover :( -- I also found a leak from the upper transmission fluid line where it connects to the radiator, so I'll have to put a splice in there or replace that line YAY!

I started on the thermostat/housing this weekend because I really wanted to do something other than the valve covers again.

As far as that job goes, it is a classic case of "Don't read the FSM"... I started removing the lower radiator support, ran into some issues with a stripped bolt (wasted a good amount of time on that one).

So I started looking it over for another route... May have required a bit more work but it allowed me to access everything I needed while standing up and not risking dumping antifreeze on my face. I removed the power steering pump, alternator and tensioner bracket... Much easier to do the job from there

I tested my thermostat and it is good so I'll reinstall that one with a new gasket and replace the housing because I had to use a knife to cut the lower hose off of it. I'll also replace that hose with a longer one that will go over the rusty spot and hopefully get me to Spring when I can replace the metal line. Replacing the cruddy spring clamps because they're a PITA to take off even with all that stuff out of the way.

Bit off more than I could chew in one day (Saturday was nasty, cold, and windy here so I didn't do anything), so she's parked for the week. I'll use my long weekend after Thanksgiving to put everything back together and replace the valve cover gaskets (got FelPro -- hopefully that brand can be trusted for this application?)

I'm starting to consider picking up Trepids from the junk yard for cheap and fixing them... I'm getting kind of good at this stuff... SALTS (Instead of LOL; Smiled A Little Then Stopped)
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The below information is not trying to tell you what to do - just advice that can be taken or not. Just things that I have found that work for me.

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Just wanted to give an update; The source of the oil leak is the driver side valve cover... and possibly the timing chain cover :( -- I also found a leak from the upper transmission fluid line where it connects to the radiator, so I'll have to put a splice in there or replace that line YAY!
Almost always, the transmission cooler line leak is fixed by tightening the clamps on the two lines where they hook to the radiator nipples. The lines themselves are very tough as far as not cutting through.

The clamp screw heads are very hard to get to - you might actually save time and frustration by removing the radiator fan assembly. It's a tight squeeze getting the fan assembly by the upper and lower radiator hoses, but can be done carefully without disconnecting the hoses - hint: move the fan assembly back towards the engine so you can flex the hoses out of the way rather than be blocked by the rigid radiator nipples.

If they used the same clamps on your '02 as they did on my '98 and '99, the best tool to tighten those screw clamps is a 1/4" open-end wrench - any other type of wrench is problematic due to socket and box-end walls being too thick to fit between screw head and clamp band - also, the screw head hex corners are rounded and not sharp, so the 1/4" wrench needs to be a close fit - for that reason, even if you could get a socket or box-end on, if it was 12-point and not 6-point, it would slip.

Again, should be good just tightening the two clamps, but you could replace them with fuel injection hose clamps (available at NAPA stores) - they give a nice even pressure all around and so are more effective at preventing leaks with less severe tightening that could cut thru a hose due to uneven pressure of the screw clamp. You just need to get the right size. The hoses can be difficult to remove from the radiator nipples (to put the new clamps on) due to the barbs that slightly cut into the ID of the hoses.

Fuel injection hose clamps:


Quote:
I started on the thermostat/housing this weekend because I really wanted to do something other than the valve covers again.

As far as that job goes, it is a classic case of "Don't read the FSM"... I started removing the lower radiator support, ran into some issues with a stripped bolt (wasted a good amount of time on that one).

So I started looking it over for another route... May have required a bit more work but it allowed me to access everything I needed while standing up and not risking dumping antifreeze on my face. I removed the power steering pump, alternator and tensioner bracket... Much easier to do the job from there
No easy way to do it. Alternator and p.s. steering pump R&R are difficult on the 2.7. I believe the FSM procedure does have you remove the alternator anyway.

Quote:
I tested my thermostat and it is good so I'll reinstall that one with a new gasket and replace the housing because I had to use a knife to cut the lower hose off of it. I'll also replace that hose with a longer one that will go over the rusty spot and hopefully get me to Spring when I can replace the metal line. Replacing the cruddy spring clamps because they're a PITA to take off even with all that stuff out of the way.
You might still replace the t-stat. OEM only and test before install. I'd trust a new OEM one over a years-old one, especially if it's the original (meaning *very* old). Up to you.

I prefer the factory spring clamps because they are "self tightening" when the hose rubber takes a compression set, plus the even pressure all the way around. For the future, you could get a cable-type spring clamp tool - about $30-40 for a decent one. Even then, it can be a little difficult getting the spring clamps on and off with that, but usually there's a way - it makes the near impossible fairly possible (though not always easy).

Don't know if we discussed, but you may otherwise already know: Only G05 (HOAT) antifreeze, thorough flush, no mixing with other types, use distilled water.

G05:
• Chrysler/Mopar Long-Life 100k Mile (reddish in color)
• Zerex G05 (yellow in color)
• Ford/Motorcraft "Gold" (yellow in color).

Did you actually figure out where the water is leaking from?

Cable-type spring clamp tool:


Quote:
Bit off more than I could chew in one day (Saturday was nasty, cold, and windy here so I didn't do anything), so she's parked for the week. I'll use my long weekend after Thanksgiving to put everything back together and replace the valve cover gaskets (got FelPro -- hopefully that brand can be trusted for this application?)...
Felpro or OEM are always safe on the gaskets. I just haven't ever had to use any other brands, and don't feel like learning the hard way which other brands are good and bad. Felpro is one of the few companies still around that has earned a solid good reputation. Have never had a bad experience with them, and have never heard anyone bad mount them - very unusual. Digikey Electronics and McMaster-Carr are two other companies like that.


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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-22-2016, 08:58 AM Thread Starter
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Did you actually figure out where the water is leaking from?
Don't really have time this morning to reply to your full post. But no, I can't say definitively were the leak is coming from.

I'm pretty sure it's the gasket around the thermostat because it was in pretty bad shape and nowhere near as firm as the new gasket. I know for sure that the leak is coming from that area, possibly more than the one place. I'm going to replace the housing as well because I had to cut into it a bit and it's possible that it got too hot and has a small fracture from the first time the engine overheated on my wife.

As I mentioned, and you saw in the pics, there is a good amount of rust on the metal pipe that the smaller hose connects to, specifically around the back bell on the pipe. I'm going to replace the short rubber hose with one that is long enough to go over the rust until a time comes when I can just replace the pipe. I'll of course clean the pipe up before installing so I don't get a bunch of crud in my cooling system.

I'm picking up some Zerex on my way home today. I finally found a local store that stocks the stuff. I'll be certain to flush the system before filling and burping. Hopefully everything else will last until spring...

Always open to more ideas/suggestions. Everything on that side of the engine is easy to get to with the p/s, alternator and tensioner removed
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