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Charging Issues

2K views 14 replies 5 participants last post by  JJerrell 
#1 · (Edited)
Vehicle: 01 Intrepid 2.7L 162k miles
Electrical History: Recently changed positive battery to jump post cable (corrosion, very poor connection), the negative battery to jump post is stock, and doesn't seem to be a problem.
Codes: P1684--always, P1682--new, and P0455--not relevant

This morning, about 1/3 of my way to work (hour commute). While returning to highway speeds after getting out of a small town, my battery light came on. No choice but to try to get to work, I turned all accessories off (heat, radio, and dimmed the interior lights) -- not sure if this would make any difference but I wanted to make sure I had every bit of juice possible. While dimming the lights, my headlights flashed bright for a second, and seemed much dimmer than normal for the rest of the drive. Everything seems to be doing fine, I cracked the window a time or two for a cigarette, normal performance on highway, and in town.

Backed into my parking spot in case I have to do any work on it, or get jumped before leaving. Shut her down, and started it up immediately.. no battery light. Turned on headlights, radio, heat, got out to see if the headlights were at their normal brightness. All seemed well, hopped in to shut it off, battery light was on again.

Did key dance, found P1684 (no surprise there), P1682 (now that ones new...), and 0455 (had a loose gas cap last week, the CEL has cleared, and hasn't returned)

P1682 is one that I haven't received before. FSM says Driver 5 Line 2 (huhwha?). A little research says poor voltage to charging system... definitely the cause of my battery light this morning.

More research says check fuses, and voltage at PCM, then voltage/connections at alternator. This was just on a generic forum (e.g. answers.com). Limited posts on these forums reference P1682 (aside from that idiot that pretended to have an emergency LOL!). Nothing I've read from this site is making me feel like I need to check the PCM, it seems pretty conclusive that the issue is always the alternator. Just want to make sure that is the consensus before I start throwing money at an alternator when something else is to blame.

Not knowing much about vehicles, I'm curious if the rattling I hear is coming from the alternator, and it's been going out, or had something wrong with it for a long time. The location definitely matches. I made a post about the rattling in another persons thread yesterday.

Also curious to see if I can get away with driving it for the rest of the week (may require a jump to get to, and from work?), or if I need to have someone come up with some tools, and pick up an alternator so I can do it in the parking lot today (not looking forward to that possibility)

Being the only vehicle available to get from to/from work, I won't be able to order/wait for Mopar. So my options are autozone/oreilly, or junk yard.

I guess a multi-meter is another tool I need to keep in the always with me tool bag :D

As always, thanks for reading, or at least skimming my wall of text! :baller:
 
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#3 · (Edited)
I've made some calls, everyone I've spoken with agrees that it's the alternator. Alternator is being picked up from the scrap yard by my wife. She'll have it tested at autozone. Looks like I'll be doing an emergency tear down tonight unless someone comes here and stops me :D

Edit: Junkyard alternator tested bad. Ordering autozone brand, using junkyard part as a core... lost 10 bucks on the gamble. FML :baller: :(
 
#4 ·
Symptom:
P1682-CHARGING SYSTEM VOLTAGE TOO LOW

When Monitored and Set Condition:
P1682-CHARGING SYSTEM VOLTAGE TOO LOW
When Monitored: With the ignition key on and the engine running over 1152 RPM. With
no other charging system codes set.
Set Condition: The battery sensed voltage is 1 volt below the charging goal for 25 seconds.
The PCM senses the battery Voltage turns off the field driver and senses the battery
voltage again. If the voltages are the same, the code is set.

POSSIBLE CAUSES
B (+) CIRCUIT HIGH RESISTANCE
GENERATOR GROUND HIGH RESISTANCE
ASD RELAY OUTPUT CIRCUIT OPEN
ASD RELAY OUTPUT CIRCUIT SHORTED TO GROUND
GENERATOR FIELD DRIVER CIRCUIT OPEN
GENERATOR FIELD DRIVER CIRCUIT SHORTED TO GROUND
PCM
PCM DEF (CHARGING SYSTEM VOLTAGE LOW)
 
#5 ·
I'm not sure I understand much of that at all.

Looks like I need to check the ASD relay (swap with another, start up the engine, see if it goes away?)
Check current from the battery terminals
Confirm voltage levels at the various electrical connections on the alternator (generator)
and PCM... not sure how to test this one other than swapping it with another PCM

Is this saying that there is a good possibility that it's not the alternator at all? I don't imagine autozone could simply test the PCM?

Sorry, mechanically inclined, but not very knowledgeable here. I sure can take stuff apart though :p
 
#8 ·
The belt is mostly new, tension was good. Tested power output with the engine running, only got 12-13v, same measurement with the vehicle off. Alternator was shot. By the looks of it, the considerable amount of oil leaking from the valve covers (fixed previously), and the timing cover (fixing now) probably didn't help.

FWIW, R&R'ing the alternator is much easier from the top. FSM says you pull it out from the bottom -- much harder that way IMO.

Removing the power steering pump, and tensioner really isn't that much work. You have to remove the radiator support, and a few other things up there anyway to get to the bolts on the alternator.

Probably could have finished it last night with someone holding a flashlight. But I couldn't stand being that close to the timing cover, and not fixing that leak while I was there. So we'll button her back up tonight.

I can't figure out why the hell the timing cover was still leaking. Brand new gasket, seal, and RTV where it mates with the oil pan. I'm just going to seal it like it was the first time I broke in to it; a ton of RTV, and no gasket.
 
#9 ·
This would be on the very top of my list to check:
The connection between the alternator and the battery is thru a green fusible link that Y's into the positive battery cable just a few inches from the battery positive post cable clamp. When there is corrosion damage to the positive terminal, quite often the green fusible link gets cancer and corrodes in two - leaving - voilà!! - no connection between alternator and battery - hence the codes, no charge to the battery (engine running voltage at battery = engine not running voltage at battery), and a lot of perfectly good factory alternators getting replaced.

So - my guess is that either the fusible link is corroded in two, or it was in the process of corroding/burning in two, and you broke it the rest of the way when you did the repair (or you spliced the fusible link into the new replaced cable and the splice is not making good connection).

I hope that's it, and chances are very good that it is.

You're welcome. :wink:

BTW - the 2.7 alternator is a PITA to R&R - it's like a Rubik's cube getting it in and out.

Also: 162k is a little early for wearout of the 2.7 alternator. Mine lasted until about 260k miles. (Doesn't mean yours hasn't failed.)

Also no. 2: *IF* you do end up having to replace the alternator, I *highly* recommend the Remy 94609 ($100 at Rock Auto: 2001 DODGE INTREPID 2.7L V6 Alternator / Generator | RockAuto)
+NEW - not rebuilt
+price is excellent
+good brand.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Fusible link appears to be in tact. My father in law finished the labor today since I had to get to work. He's waiting till I get home to test it, mainly so the gasket former has a little bit of time to cure, and that gives a couple hours before sunset to work out any kinks that may surface.

My understanding of fusible links (never actually seen one fail) is that it's weak enough that it will burn through and be visibly destroyed. It's entirely possible that I have no idea what I'm talking about, or as you mentioned, corrosion got it which I don't imagine would be externally noticeable. So I'll double check that tonight.

My alternator was pretty soaked with oil, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if that was a contributing factor, and the alternator is indeed dead.

I bought the dorman or w/e the brand is from Autozone, but made sure to get the *new* one. I fully expect it to fail... probably pretty soon, but I didn't have time to wait for shipping. I'll prepare for the inevitable, and hope they give me store credit under warranty when this one fails because I'll either go Mopar, or get the Remy you mentioned.

I didn't have autozone test the factory alternator because it felt pretty conclusive, but I definitely hope it's just the fusible link, and they haven't shipped my core out yet. I might be SOL, and have a crappy alternator, when all I needed to do is R&R the link. (facepalm)

Thanks Ronbo & Peva!

P.S. - If you normally R&R the alternator through the bottom (I believe the book says to do it this way), it is as big of a PITA as the thermostat is from the bottom. If you get the chance to do another one, do it from the top! I was able to get all the bolts out, pull the alternator up into plain view, and then disconnect the connections. Much less of a rubik's cube that way!

Removing PS, and the tensioner isn't that much labor in comparison to what you have to do otherwise. In hindsight, you may be able to get to it without removing PS, and the tensioner, but I had to get them out of the way anyway to fix the timing cover leak.... AGAIN, and hopefully the last time (facepalm)
 
#11 ·
Another thought is go ahead and buy the core charge at crapzone and take your original OEM alternator to a good auto electric shop and have it rebuilt. Might be best of both worlds. Then you would have a known good OEM alternator on hand when the durafart goes toes up.
 
#12 · (Edited)
If your alt. is oil covered, maybe it is the problem - specifically, if the brushes and slip rings are contaminated with oil, that could interrupt connection to the rotor windings. But off-the-car test should prove or disprove.

I don't recall ever reading of an opening of the fusible link purely from a fuse-action from over current. Have read of a few that did corrode in two. My '99 Concorde (that I scrapped a couple of years ago, and its 2.7 engine was swapped over to my '98 - now my current daily driver) had the link corrode about 1/3 of the way thru, and I thoroughly cleaned it down to bare metal and coated it with a protective coating of bearing grease, and it functioned fine for several years until I scrapped the '99 body with the failed 3.2 transferred from the '98 body.

The link may look fine from the outside, but battery acid will migrate in under the green cover - such that if you peel the green cover back, you would find the cancer, and the cross-section (effective diameter) of the copper reduced or completely eaten thru (or partially eaten thru, embrittled, and fractured the rest of the way from vibration/flexing/burning from normal current).

It's not clear to me from your OP what part/end of the pos. battery cable was replaced or repaired, and specifically how you spliced new to old sections, and if the juncture of the fusible link and the cable-proper was involved in what you re-worked.

Yeah - so if you're certain of the integrity of the resulting cable/fusible link as an assembly, then you may indeed have a bad alt.

*IF* you can compare voltage at alt. output (can you reach it with a meter lead?) and at battery with engine running, a high reading (16 volts or so) at alt. and 12.5-13 volts at battery (or a single *difference* reading from alt. output to battery pos. post of greater than 2 volts) would prove a break somewhere in fusible link or its junction to the cable-proper. But a reading of 12.5 to 13 volts at *both* locations (i.e., close to 0 volts difference) with engine running, then that would prove good cable/link as an assembly, and likely bad alt.

Interesting your comments about servicing the alt. from above. I never would have guessed any approach except from below, but I hope I never have a reason to have to prove or disprove what you're suggesting. :) Pretty damn crowded looking down at the alt. from above, and I *know* it's a PITA from below.
 
#13 ·
TL;DR - Alternator replaced, vehicle runs fine. Fusible link is good (without thorough inspection) -- for now.

Electrical definitely isn't my strong suit so I can see how it would be difficult to understand what I'm explaining.

How I confirmed alternator wasn't charging:

Multi-meter at ground strap (next to fuse box), and positive lead (going into fuse box). Read ~12.4-12.6 volts with the engine off. Started engine, performed the same test, resulted in the same reading (no charge condition).

Performed the exact same test after swapping alt's. Same reading with the engine turned off ~12.5v, and resulted in a 13-14v read with the engine running (I interpret this a charge condition since I undoubtedly drained my battery a good amount -- hopefully my assumption is correct).

I drove it this morning, no issues, no warning lights -- 1 hour commute through all sorts of road conditions.

Regarding the alternator R&R. I discovered that things are easier this way when I replaced the thermostat. Got tired of struggling with the hose clamps, gasket, and making sure everything stayed in place. I already had some of the stuff removed up top anyway so I thought hey, lets pull this pump out and see if it's any easier... Confirmed, thermostat replacement is much less frustrating that way too. I don't unhook the PS Pump, just move it off to the side near the cruise control, and use a little bit of wire to hold it in place if I get tired of pushing it out of my way repeatedly.

Regarding the previous replacement, I replace the little pigtail between the battery, and the positive jump post. It's been a while, but I believe the fusible link was tied into the original battery post. When I did the replacement, I used one of the large battery connectors that they sell for high end audio systems (has 2 large spots, and 2 small spots for wires). The main battery to jump post went into one of the large holes, the fusible link (or other small wire if I'm mistaken, like I said, it's been a while) went into one of the smaller holes. The only wire I actually removed and replaced was the battery->pos. jump post wire. To be honest, I bought a pre-made battery to jump post wire, hacked the connector off, and hooked it into the new connector. Wasn't pretty at first, but it looks good now, and works just fine :)

I'm pretty happy with what this car has taught me. I went from taking several hours to get to, and remove everything; to coming home at 5:30pm, and being ready for the new part by 6:15pm :D -- As always, everyone's help is appreciated. I'll try to throw in some tips to return the favor if I feel like I found something new once in a while.
 
#14 ·
Sounds like you definitely nailed it with the new alt.

And the two-holer cable end clamp for the main cable and fusible link was ideal for making that splice. I was thinking the factory splice occurred a couple inches away from the clamp, but now that you mention them joining right at the clamp - that is probably accurate.

FYI, the alternator output spec. is (at 2200 rpm - anything above about 1500 is usually adequate to peak it out, but also load-dependent as to rpm needed for meeting the voltage spec. - probably heaviest load is cabin fan on high speed, bright headlights probably second heaviest load) is between 13.5 and 14.5 volts. It is temperature compensated, so that in cold weather, it is higher - max's out at 14.5 at some unspecified lower temperature, and in warmer weather bottoms out at 13.5 at some unspecified warmer temperature. In moderate weather, oh say, 65 to 75°F, you would typically see in the 13.7 to 14.2 range.

I found getting the power steering pump off during the timing chain/water pump job to be about as difficult as working the alternator out from underneath. I guess that's where the expression "YMMV" comes into play. :)

Good work!!
 
#15 ·
Thanks! The spacer that helps hold the PS pump in place (one of the bolts goes through it) was the bear in my case... When I figured that out, subsequent removals have gone much smoother. Get all the bolts out, jiggle it towards, and away from you a few times (or use a long standard screw driver to push it away). But yes, what works for one guy, may not work for the next ;)

Side note, Would you mind reviewing my post in the 'help me with my car noise' thread? I may have hijacked the guys thread, but it seemed relevant at the time, and he doesn't seem to be coming back :D

I'm wondering if it was the alternator all this time (bad bearing maybe?) because I couldn't recreate the issue this morning. But for some reason, I notice it more in the evening so I'll see what happens when I head home tonight.

It doesn't seem to be messing with performance, but I would rather people turned their heads for other reasons :)
 
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