Valve Stem Seal R&R Clarification - DodgeIntrepid.Net Forums - Dodge Intrepid, Concorde, 300m and Eagle Vision chat
 
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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old 04-05-2017, 03:47 PM Thread Starter
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Valve Stem Seal R&R Clarification

Hey folks, it's me again... I've been experiencing a lot of smoke on idle, and take off. So I'm pretty sure my seals are ready to be replaced.

I'm just being cautious and planning my summer activities. The various walk throughs I've found say it's not necessary to touch the primary chain, and they say to have the FSM on hand. But the FSM explicitly says to remove the primary chain...

It appears that I'll need to rotate the engine to get each valve at TDC as I R&R them... again, this is according to the FSM, no mention in the other guides. So if I leave the primary chain in place, I see this being a problem. Do I not actually need to get to TDC for each valve while doing this procedure? Should I just line up all the timing marks on the primary, and go to work on the valves without rotating the engine as I move down the line? If I understand the timing marks correctly, this places everything as close to the midway point as possible. Is this correct, and the reason all the guides say to leave the primary alone?

I suppose I'll need to acquire a valve spring compressor. Do I not actually need the special tool to hold the cams for this job since they're coming off, and I'll be setting the timing manually?

Do you recommend replacing anything else while I have it apart, like the tensioners/lash adjusters?

I have some rattling which I'm pretty certain is coming from inside the engine since it is much less noticeable now that the cover is properly sealed. It only happens when I'm driving it, I cannot reproduce the sound in park even if I rev the engine to the same place, it must be in gear, and under load to reproduce the sound. My primary chain is definitely tight, and the new tensioner is doing dandy. I don't want to think the rattling is normal, but I suppose its possible that no one would notice it with properly sealed valve/timing covers

Thanks again! I tried not to write a book this time

Also curious which brand is preferred; Rockauto has Mopar brand for $3.72 per 12! [edit]Redacted -- I hadn't started shopping for compressors yet.[/edit]

So I found a few options for the valve spring compressors. Obviously, I would prefer one of the cheaper options if they'll work. Would you mind checking the links and letting me know which ones would do the job?

I think this is very similar to the one Bill used:
One Man Operation Valve Spring Compressor Tool Set

This would save me about $50 bucks, and is the most similar tool I can find to the one posted here:
Universal Car Valve Spring Remover Installer Compressor Tool Kit

Or this one:
Proform 66784 Valve Spring Compressor

And probably not this one, but I thought I would ask:
OTC 4573 Universal Overhead Valve Spring Compressor


Last edited by JJerrell; 04-07-2017 at 01:26 PM.
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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old 04-05-2017, 08:08 PM
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I believe Peva would be the expert on this. Maybe wait until he sees this thread or shoot him a PM?
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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old 04-07-2017, 08:02 AM Thread Starter
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No rush, just something I want to do when I find myself with nothing else to do one of these weekends. I'm sure he, or someone else that has experience with the procedure will make their way here eventually. Don't wanna pester the guy :P
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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old 04-07-2017, 01:16 PM
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Sorry - been meaning to get to this. My birthday and anniversary tonight, so maybe tomorrow.

My first suggestion is going to be to use the ol' push-string-into-the-cylinder-to-fill-it-up trick (vs. compressed air) to hold the valves up. Also - not just any valve spring compressor will fit on our heads. A couple of options on that.

Viton is Viton, unless you're using a real junk brand. I'd say Mopar and Felpro are exactly equal on this. I used Felpro. Go with whichever is the best deal between those two brands and you're safe.

I will say that mine smoked and used oil like crazy for 2 to 3 years, then I replaced the valve stem seals when I did the chain and water pump several years ago. Zero smoke, zero oil usage since that. At about 270k miles now, though not putting more than 1 or 2k a year on it now (is my daily driver, but my commute is now only 1.4 miles x 2).

Are you planning on doing all 24 valves, or just the exhaust valves? (My recommendation is to do them all.)

More later...


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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old 04-07-2017, 01:35 PM Thread Starter
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Happy Birthday/Anniversary! No rush whatsoever, just planning for a future task. Enjoy your celebrations!

I linked a few tools in my first post when I redacted my comment about it being the cheapest repair... They're in the order of how likely I think the tool will work... also price but that was coincidental.

I plan on doing all 24, and anything else that needs attention in there. Hoping to make it the last time I have to take the valve covers off... that probably isn't going to happen lol.

I appreciate the clarification whenever it's convenient for you. I'm not experienced, and I'm using the vehicle to learn. I have 2 daughters, and a son that I hope will feel comfortable coming to me when they need their vehicles repaired/looked at in the future. I'll do some searching on the string trick, I'm sure there are some videos out there that will help me visualize exactly what I'll be doing.

You wouldn't wanna loan a guy your compression tool would you? I'll pay shipping both ways
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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old 04-07-2017, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJerrell View Post
Happy Birthday/Anniversary!...
Thank you.

On the spring compressors - yes - the first one is exactly the one I have. The nice thing about that one is that you screw the "pusher" down, and it holds the pressure on the spring leaving both of your hands free to mess with the keepers, etc. But, with shipping, you're a bit over $100.

The 2nd one is probably a good compromise - get it on ebay for $40 including shipping (Valve Spring Remover Installer Compressor Tool Kit FITS MOST DOMESTIC&IMPORT CAR | eBay). It looks like you will need to use one hand to hold the pressure while you fiddle with the keepers with the other hand. A bit more awkward than the first one in that regard, but for the money, a good one. If you were to have a helper available for the few seconds on each spring to remove and install the keepers (i.e., one person focusing on compressing the spring, the other one to have both hands and their mind free to mess with the keepers), then it's probably a no brainer to get that one.

The 3rd one I can't visualize how it would work on our engines. It may be for certain types of other engines and won't work for ours, but I can't be sure - would help to see a photos of it in action.

The 4th one I veto, It hooks to the spring, and compresses only a part of the spring. To get the total amount of compression on a spring needed to get the keepers in and out, it's on the edge of permanently deforming the spring. With it grabbing and compressing only part of the spring, you're having to force the top of the spring down the same distance (to get the keepers out and in), but that distance is spread across only *some* of the coils, not the entire spring, so you run a *much* greater chance of permanently deforming those coils that are compressed.

String method: Go to Walmart and buy some 3/16" nylon rope. Rotate the crankshaft to put the piston of the cylinder you're going to work on near bottom dead center. Push the end of the rope into the spark plug hole. Keep pushing rope into the cylinder until the cylinder is pretty full, then stop. Don't worry about getting every last bit of rope possible in. Rotate the crankshaft to move the piston up to compress the rope against the cylinder head and valves. That will hold the valves up when the springs are removed.

Using the string method, you don't have to have an air compressor, or if you do, you don't have to worry about the air compressor crapping out in the middle of the job and dropping a valve into the cylinder! I used the string technique on a different engine I worked on one time, and it worked perfectly. I wish I had done it on my 2.7. Instead, I used a home compressor with no water/moisture trap. After I had everything back together, I couldn't crank the engine over by hand past the first cylinder TDC because (as I *finally* figured out) the carbon on the piston top and cylinder head swelled from exposure to the water in the compressed air over several hours - created an interference between pistons and cylinder head near TDC. If I had not discovered that when attempting to turn it over slowly by hand, it would very likely have done serious engine damage when I would have first cranked it over using the starter. (Fortunately, I figured out that possibly Sea Foam would dissolve or soften the carbon, so I tried putting Sea Foam in each cylinder and sucking it out with a plastic tube taped to the end of a shop vac hose, and repeating several times - did that to each cylinder - and it worked! Phew!! Dodged a bullet!)

"Do I not actually need the special tool to hold the cams for this job since they're coming off...?": No - those cam-locking tools are *only* for the 3.2/3.5 engines. That's because the cam clocking relatively to the cam sprockets is adjustable by a few degrees on the 3.2/3.5 engines. The clocking of the cams on the 2.7 are rigidly fixed relative to the sprockets, so no locking tools needed.

Anything else to replace: Not on the valve train unless you know there are some bad lash adjusters, or you see some unusual roller or cam wear - Would be unusual. I don't recall anyone ever posting about having issues with the secondary chain tensioners. I re-used mine without hesitation because of that.

You said "It appears that I'll need to rotate the engine to get each valve at TDC as I R&R them...": I don't think that's right. There may be some confusing things in the FSM like that. Tell me what year FSM and on what page you are seeing that said, and I think I can clarify.

I'm a little puzzled about your saying you're not removing the primary chain. You have to remove the cams to get the valve springs off. That means the sprockets come off, which means the timing cover and the damper pulley come off. Essentially the primary chain comes off (sprockets and cams are removed to replace valve stem seals).

QUESTION: I saw in another thread where you said you replaced the valve stem seals (Help me with my car noise thread number 54686). Was that on another LH car?

I forget - when you installed a new tensioner, did you use a tensioner from the dealer, or was it an aftermarket one?


(note to self - for possible future reference:2002 Concorde Fuel line repair questions)


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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old 04-08-2017, 08:04 AM
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You may know this already, but a small magnet is good for pulling the keepers out (you may first have to break some varnish loose with a screwdriver or knife). Before putting them back in, put a dab of axle grease in the keeper groove to "glue" them in place while you release the spring compressor.
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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 09:53 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peva View Post
Thank you.
You're welcome

Quote:
Originally Posted by peva View Post
You said "It appears that I'll need to rotate the engine to get each valve at TDC as I R&R them...": I don't think that's right. There may be some confusing things in the FSM like that. Tell me what year FSM and on what page you are seeing that said, and I think I can clarify.
I'm reading the 2001 FSM, ELH_9 Page 42. Actually under the installation procedure, not removal. I think I have a better understanding of what I will be doing vs what it say's I'll be doing though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peva View Post
I'm a little puzzled about your saying you're not removing the primary chain. You have to remove the cams to get the valve springs off. That means the sprockets come off, which means the timing cover and the damper pulley come off. Essentially the primary chain comes off (sprockets and cams are removed to replace valve stem seals).
I'm getting this from the "Is your 2.7 burning oil?" thread.

Maybe this is the case since he's only explaining the exhaust side?

Quote:
Originally Posted by peva View Post
QUESTION: I saw in another thread where you said you replaced the valve stem seals (Help me with my car noise thread number 54686). Was that on another LH car?
No, that was rushed typing, and too many things going on in my head. I replaced the valve cover gaskets, grommets, and spark plug gaskets... definitely not the valve stem seals. Sorry 'bout that

Quote:
Originally Posted by peva View Post
I forget - when you installed a new tensioner, did you use a tensioner from the dealer, or was it an aftermarket one?
100% of the parts from that job came from the dealer (excluding the stop block of course). Probably could have saved some money by picking, and choosing with the chain, guides, and sprockets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peva View Post
(note to self - for possible future reference:2002 Concorde Fuel line repair questions)
You had me worried at first... I was thinking "ah, crap what does he think is wrong with my fuel lines?" lol... I read through the post, and understand why you referenced it. That actually cleared up quite a few doubts I had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peva View Post
You may know this already, but a small magnet is good for pulling the keepers out (you may first have to break some varnish loose with a screwdriver or knife). Before putting them back in, put a dab of axle grease in the keeper groove to "glue" them in place while you release the spring compressor.
Good info! I knew I would appreciate picking up a few small neodymiums several years ago.

So just to recap:

1. Remove intake, damper, covers, etc
2. rotate primary chain to line up all marks.
3. confirm secondary chains are in the right position (they will be... but look anyway)
4. remove primary chain, and cam sprockets
5. proceed with the seal R&R

Now this is where I'm still somewhat unsure... I understand that I can rotate the cam's all day long with the marks lined up, and the chain removed. I assume I can rotate the crank in the same fashion as long as I reset everything when it's time to reinstall the chain?

I seem to remember rotating the crank a little when I did the WP job, but I don't think I moved it very far because I was afraid of terrible things happening. I don't foresee any issues with this, but the internal workings are still somewhat mysterious to me.

Now, if you could just download your brain to a hard drive, and ship it to me.... that'd be great!

Thanks Peva!
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