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post #91 of 108 (permalink) Old 03-14-2011, 10:49 PM
yippee ki yay

 
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well, i just got off the phone with the dealership.

upon their diagnosis they believe it is either the main bearings or the oil pump, more than likely both, they still don't know for sure exactly which it is.

either way, neither of these two items are covered by the so called warranty. the warranty covers only catastrophic failure, meaning FAILED items, NOT FAILING, but past tense, AND on top of that it doesn't cover "Normal Wear Items" as in any and all bearings, pumps, cams, cranks, timing chain etc.... the only thing it really does cover is if a rod breaks and goes through the block, and i would have to pay the $250 deductible and anything over $1300.


the price of everything they have done now, which is pretty much nothing but having it towed, replacing oil pan and gasket, and oil, + Labor is $220.20


if it is just the bearings that is wrong with it, it would cost me $1,900, out of pocket

if it's the oil pump, crank, and bearings, pretty much everything they think is wrong with it, it would cost me more than $3,000, out of pocket.


so i just wasted $220 for them to tell me yes, something is wrong with the engine! NAH FUCKING SHIT SHERLOCK! i knew that.......



just called them back, they are going to put it on a manual gauge and see if the oil pump is good or bad tomorrow.....

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Hopefully the warranty wasn't drawn up with erasable ink.
^^^^ that's what i orginally thought.......sorry to hear about.......are you thinking about a swap to a 3.2 or 3.5 yet?
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post #92 of 108 (permalink) Old 03-14-2011, 11:12 PM Thread Starter
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Yea, but can I afford it soon enough?
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post #93 of 108 (permalink) Old 03-14-2011, 11:19 PM
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what your budget? what can you spend......if you don't know how to rebuild this 2.7 yourself then it's going to be cheaper to do the swap.......i do not trust many shops at rebuilding these 2.7 motors as more then 60% of them get it wrong......it's your money....one way or another you will have to decide if the shop is competent to rebuild it....if you by another 2.7 motor it's going to be tough to know what your getting.
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post #94 of 108 (permalink) Old 03-14-2011, 11:39 PM
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Wow, I've had one of those warranties. Sucks, I'm sorry.

You could TRY to change just the rod bearings and see if your pressure improves. Pop the rod caps off, and look at the bearings. If they don't look TOO abused, lay in strips of plastigauge. measure what they come to, and then see what the bearing is you are using. you MIGHT find that you need the next bearing size up. You would also want to measure the journal with a caliper to see if you are badly out of round or not.

That is the last hope I have for the motor... if none of that works out, stick a fork in it and swap in a 3.2/5.
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post #95 of 108 (permalink) Old 03-14-2011, 11:59 PM Thread Starter
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if i'm going to spend that much money on the 2.7 to rebuild it i would rather put my money to actual good use and get a 3.5, but i only have an extra $350 to try and get one, waiting for SPAD3's reply, he sent one message that a motor from pick-a-part is only $175 + tax for everything, i don't know what type of condition that would be in, or what else it entails to get it running, waiting for his reply.

who knows, maybe i can drive the 13 miles to and from a day for work, and nothing else for the next month or so till weather gets better so that i can start riding my motorcycle and be able to get the 3.5L in about 3 months? Maybe less?
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post #96 of 108 (permalink) Old 03-15-2011, 12:31 AM
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Sounds like the right plan!
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post #97 of 108 (permalink) Old 03-16-2011, 06:05 PM Thread Starter
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ok, dealership called back, according to their manual gauge the oil pump is in good working condition, which means w/o a doubt now it is the bearings, either rod, or main, or both, it cost's to much to have someone do them for me, plus as we saw from the picture i posted of the crank that the engine has been torn into pretty heavily before, and there is no telling what size bearings actually go in it now, so as for patching this engine up until me and SPAD3 can find me a decent 3.5 to put in it, could i go pull a crankshaft from pick-a-part, take it to a machine shop to be cleaned and sized for bearings then put it in myself?


i was going to see if SPAD3 could "Shadow" over me doing most of this, be it patching this engine, and/or getting and installing the 3.5, but he has a baby due any time, so what can i do now? i don't know a whole lot about mechanics, but i am a geek, and i love to learn, plus i have several contacts that do know about mechanics that can give me advice, but none of them can physically "See" what i'm doing, any ideas on where to get someone to "Help" me with this stuff? plus i don't really have the "Space" to do any of this.
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post #98 of 108 (permalink) Old 03-16-2011, 06:33 PM
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Being of the geek linage myself I might suggest skype and a web cam I have used in the past for other fixes and it worked well, not as good as having them there but worked just the same.
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post #99 of 108 (permalink) Old 03-16-2011, 07:23 PM Thread Starter
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Great idea griff, as i have htc hd2 phone with android, I can do video call through Skype or yahoo, or if anyone knows of a better app to use... and who's willing to help like this? Cdmccul?
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post #100 of 108 (permalink) Old 03-17-2011, 09:09 AM Thread Starter
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cousin is suggesting to get a 3.7L instead of a 3.5L, what do you guys suggest?


will it convert as easily? will tranny hold it? is it worth it? what's the difference?


had to go and buy daytrepper's manual, because in my searching w/o it i had a lot of people start to tell me that the 02 intrepid and concord's can ONLY interchange with same engine size.

here are some pictures of what i found...

vin tag under engine picture goes to picture above.











oh, and i guess video chatting is out of question, for some reason 3g signal keeps going in and out in the lot, they do have wifi, but it doesn't reach to the back corner of the lot where the chrysler's are. >.<

Last edited by krowe985; 03-17-2011 at 11:34 AM.
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post #101 of 108 (permalink) Old 03-17-2011, 12:15 PM
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There are guys on here doing 4.0 conversions, that is what I would suggest IF you wanted to go there - but it involves using a 3.5 block and a 4.0 crank, then having to grind on the inside of the block for clearancing, etc... It can be done, but lets not get too far ahead of ourselves.

As for doing video chatting for the bearing change, sure, I'd be VERY happy to do that! I also may know someone that can help you out, but I don't know for sure what his schedule is like. He's got the room to work though.

PM me your number and we can talk about options... although it IS possible to change the crank on your back, it is NOT something I would suggest doing. If you are going to machine a new crank to install, you will need to yank the motor to really do it right and make it 'worth' it.

Drop your pan, crack one rod cap off, clean the bearing surface with spray solvent, lift the rod away and spray the other bearing surface and crank surface, then install a strip of plastiguage. Get your reading, then see if a different size bearing shell is needed.

You should also read those markings in yellow on the crank and see what they say, and also look on the surfaces of the counter weights to see if they have been stamped with what size they have been ground to. When you pop your bearing cap off, you can check the size those bearings are - they should be stamped on the back side. You will want to check the bearings and size them before buying new.
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post #102 of 108 (permalink) Old 03-21-2011, 12:00 AM Thread Starter
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#1 Rod bearings

friday, with cdmccul's help (TYVM), i was able to get the #1 Rod cap off and the bearings, i was short on time, so i wasn't able to get to the rest, so i had to start putting it all back together and go with it for now until this next coming saturday, here are a few pictures of the bearings.




Bottom Bearing (Cap side)


Both bearings, (top is Cap Side)


Top Bearing (Rod Side)


close up of Top Bearing (Rod Side) of the "Gouge/Groove" in it




now, the ONLY time that the Oil light flickers, is if i'm in DRIVE, Brakes Applied, and RPM's BELOW 600, never does it above 600, and i have noticed the RPMs wants to "Jump" up and down by 50-150 when stopped like this, still has a "LITTLE" bit of knock in it, but i'm hoping that getting the other bearings changed will stop that.


here are my few questions?.....


1) What should the idle in drive, brakes applied, be at?

2) 2nd bolt on #2 rod cap has started stripping, what is best way to get it off now? (going to go to pick-a-part and pull all rod cap bolts from and junker just in case any others start to strip)

3) Can i change MAIN bearings w/o taking out the crank?

4) What is the oil pressure supposed to be at 500 RPMs?

5) If oil pressure at 500 RPMs is less than 5, then oil light flicker is normal? and this now becomes an idle/throttle issue?





i went to Firestone Complete Auto care to have a front end alignment done (Because they offer a lifetime alignment for $180) and they can't do one because the tie rods are "Ceased", so, i have all new inner and outer tie rods that i'm going to replace tomorrow, YAY! lol, Firestone wanted to charge me $600 + to change all tie rods! >.<

6) it's probably been forever since this car has been aligned, and ceased tie rods, so the rotors are probably shot right?


after the STEALERSHIP charged me $220.20 for Tow, oil pan installation, oil pan gasket, oil, and oil filter (which pissed me off cause i had JUST put a BRAND new Fram extra guard suregrip filter on) >.<, and i drove it off the lot, when i applied the brakes, the steering wheel, and frond end shimmied and shook really bad, it didn't do this before, and when i was changing the rod bearing, the Sway bar had been altered by the mechanic, before it wasn't in my way of dropping the oil pan, now it is, could this effect the bad shaking when applying the breaks? and will it harm anything by moving it back to where it was, and how do i do that?
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post #103 of 108 (permalink) Old 03-21-2011, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krowe985 View Post
friday, with cdmccul's help (TYVM),
Happy to be of help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krowe985 View Post
Bottom Bearing (Cap side)


Both bearings, (top is Cap Side)


Top Bearing (Rod Side)


close up of Top Bearing (Rod Side) of the "Gouge/Groove" in it
Yup, them bearings are worn... The question still remains - why did they wear like that with a used crank so recently installed...


Quote:
Originally Posted by krowe985 View Post
now, the ONLY time that the Oil light flickers, is if i'm in DRIVE, Brakes Applied, and RPM's BELOW 600, never does it above 600, and i have noticed the RPMs wants to "Jump" up and down by 50-150 when stopped like this, still has a "LITTLE" bit of knock in it, but i'm hoping that getting the other bearings changed will stop that.
The RPM jumping up and down indicates to me that there is a secondary problem. possibly was an underlying cause of the bearing failure, but I wouldn't assume that right off. I'd check operation of the EGR and IAC first, and see if cleaning them helps at all. I'd start with the IAC first out of the two - easiest to get to and clean.

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here are my few questions?.....


1) What should the idle in drive, brakes applied, be at?
My understanding is between 5 and 600 - but wait for someone with a healthy running 2.7 to chime in for sure. Just to confirm, you are looking for hot idle, not cold.

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Originally Posted by krowe985 View Post
2) 2nd bolt on #2 rod cap has started stripping, what is best way to get it off now? (going to go to pick-a-part and pull all rod cap bolts from and junker just in case any others start to strip)
Again, to confirm, you are talking about the bolt HEAD stripping (rounding), not the threads stripping. According to our trusted 2.7 expert (ha!), you have to use a BRAND NEW 11mm SHALLOW socket each time you unbolt a set of rods from a 2.7. He's got like twenty 11mm sockets in his tool box that are used, and the used ones will almost always round off a head on the 2.7. Go to Sears or K-Mart and buy yourself a brand new 11mm shallow 3/8 drive Craftsman socket. THEN, also go get a 'Bolt out" set remove that rounded head. A 'bolt out' extractor has gripping teeth that will grab hold of the metal of the head. This eBay auction contains what you want, Autozone and the ilk will carry them, as well as Craftsman.

Quote:
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3) Can i change MAIN bearings w/o taking out the crank?
Yes, this can be done... I have done it on a few different engines. I would suggest NOT doing it though, till you have done the rods and see what you get. The challenge of doing the mains is that the rod caps are cross bolted (there are both vertical and horizontal bolts holding the main caps in a truss) and you also have to deal with thrust bearings. There are a few tricks to rolling the old bearings out and rolling the new bearings in that we can explain if the time comes to doing it. I'll have to see if I can get an example set up and take pictures.

Quote:
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4) What is the oil pressure supposed to be at 500 RPMs?
This should be listed in the FSM here on the board. I'll see if I can find it if you can't locate it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krowe985 View Post
5) If oil pressure at 500 RPMs is less than 5, then oil light flicker is normal? and this now becomes an idle/throttle issue?
Yes. The engine will have trouble maintaining smooth idle below 400RPM anyway, as you have discovered.



Quote:
Originally Posted by krowe985 View Post
i went to Firestone Complete Auto care to have a front end alignment done (Because they offer a lifetime alignment for $180) and they can't do one because the tie rods are "Ceased", so, i have all new inner and outer tie rods that i'm going to replace tomorrow, YAY! lol, Firestone wanted to charge me $600 + to change all tie rods! >.<
Replacing both inner and outer rods isn't a bad idea - have you found the how-to on changing the inner tie-rod bushings? I know you are changing the whole rod, but it is important you review the process for bushings because it describes removing ONLY ONE SIDE AT A TIME. It can be a little complicated to think about till you are doing it, but the idea is to never have more than one of the two bolts out of the center of the steering rack at one time. You will want a tie rod separator, or a pickle fork, or a large hammer to change the outer rod.

btw, the word you are looking for is "seized", and what they are telling you is what I was trying to explain on the phone - the inner and outer tie rods are threaded together, and they are stuck to each other so they can't be turned on the threads and adjusted. Replacing the inners and outers won't help unless the inners include the sleeve, like this:



or you get a new sleeve, like this, to go with your inner and outer sets:



Quote:
Originally Posted by krowe985 View Post
6) it's probably been forever since this car has been aligned, and ceased tie rods, so the rotors are probably shot right?
Seized tie rods and alignment would have no bearing on rotor warpage, nor would a sway bar problem. The rotors will need replaced if they measure under spec, or are warped and too far out to turn. There are differing theories on how far you should grind a rotor with each pass, but if the rotor is under spec by the time the rotor is clean and true, you have to throw it away. Fortunately, our rotors are cheap and can be replaced pretty easy. I wouldn't worry about your rotors for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krowe985 View Post
after the STEALERSHIP charged me $220.20 for Tow, oil pan installation, oil pan gasket, oil, and oil filter (which pissed me off cause i had JUST put a BRAND new Fram extra guard suregrip filter on) >.<, and i drove it off the lot, when i applied the brakes, the steering wheel, and frond end shimmied and shook really bad, it didn't do this before, and when i was changing the rod bearing, the Sway bar had been altered by the mechanic, before it wasn't in my way of dropping the oil pan, now it is, could this effect the bad shaking when applying the breaks? and will it harm anything by moving it back to where it was, and how do i do that?
Honestly, they did you a favor by removing that FRAM filter. The OE filter, or one by Purolator or Mobile will be better for you anyway, and your engine needs all the oil protection it can get. Go buy yourself a cheap oil filter wrench and upgrade filters.

The sway bar position isn't going to effect the front end shake and braking, etc... I don't know why it did that to you, but it hasn't done it since, I'd let it go for now.

As for the placement of your sway bar - I wouldn't change it from where the STEALERSHIP put it... one thing about a stealership that IS important, is that they know where a sway bar belongs. You might take some pictures of the sway bar placement on the frame from the outside (turn the front wheel hard to each side to get pictures) or from above or something and then ask on here for comparisons to where it belongs to confirm, but I'd bet it belongs where the dealer put it.

OR

the sway bar MOUNTS may not have been changed, but because the suspension was drooping on jack stands (rather than ramps) it changed where the sway bar's resting position was.

Watch for sales at Harbor Freight... upgrade to a 3-ton jack (or one of that style, you'll see the difference when you compare them to the one you have)... Maybe return that set you have that has the bad creeper. Again, many guys don't use creepers because they take up too much room between you and the bottom of the car. I'm a big enough guy that it doesn't pay to use one.

Have fun!
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post #104 of 108 (permalink) Old 03-22-2011, 05:59 PM Thread Starter
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something new!!!

i think this might be the "ROOT" cause to ALL of my engine problems i've been having,


if you will look on this picture that i have edited, and shaded in two different spots on the picture, one is in brown, the other is in yellow. I've noticed that in the YELLOW shaded spot on the engine there keeps getting a puddle of OIL there, and on the BROWN shaded spot is where oil "RESIDUE" is at all in that area, as if it is being "Sprayed" there.

now I'm thinking that my Oil Cap has gone bad, and that it's not holding a seal like it should, causing it to leak oil under pressure (The yellow area puddle), and even spraying from the bad cap under a lot of pressure (The Brown area).


the reason i'm thinking that this all is caused by the oil cap is because there isn't any oil splatter or puddle or anything anywhere else on the engine, there isn't any evidence on the passenger side of the engine of any oil leakage like this, nor is there any evidence on the driver side, not even on the electronics and everything to the side of the engine itself.


Could this be a MAJOR factor in my oil pressure problem, and not knowing how long this has been going on, and not knowing how well the previous owner took care of the car, nor how often he/she even checked the oil, in turn lead to the rod bearings going bad, and me hearing a knock now?


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post #105 of 108 (permalink) Old 03-22-2011, 06:18 PM
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the cap has nothing to do with oil pressure. all that indicates(possibly) is a neglected PCV system causing extra pressure in the crank case.
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