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post #1 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 10:25 PM Thread Starter
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Arrow 3.5 Rehabilitation Thread

So if you were following my water pump thread you would know why I'm starting this thread.

Leaking Water Pump... It's MOPAR!

Long story short, after noticing coolant coming out of the front of the engine I found a leaking water pump. Upon further inspection, I also found the rear timing cover to block seals were also leaking. While working on putting the new pump in I messed up the timing belt tensioner bolt hole in the block(oil pump). I put the engine back together and it's running fine but I'm not comfortable with the way it is so here are my plans.

Within two months(hopefully) I will park the Intrepid and have the Special ready for DD duty. I will for sure do the following to the engine:

- new timing belt and tensioner
- replace timing belt cover to block water passage seals
- replace cam oil seals
- new lower timing belt cover(mine has rusted and broke into two pieces)
- heli-coil(fix) the tensioner puller bolt hole
- inspect the top end of the motor, install new valve cover and spark plug tube gaskets

So the optional work I'm looking at doing:

- replace the oil pump hosing with a new(used) unit with no casting damages
- new crank seal(if I do the oil pump)
- rebuild the new(old) oil pump with new rotor and other internals
- new oil pressure release spring
- install the updated exhaust rocker parts
- install a new harmonic balancer pulley

Now the big concern that I have is the oil pump replacement. The FSM tells me that I have to pull the pan to get the pump out. But, I heard that the oil pan is a royal PIA. So the question is, is it easy enough to take the pump out by just loosening the pan and not completely dropping it? I believe that installing a refreshed oil pump is a good idea considering the millage on the motor(240k km).

So does anybody have an opinion on what I should be doing here? Am I heading down the right track? I'm hoping to have this car last me until 400k miles. If it does, I would be very happy with that.

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post #2 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 10:31 PM
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Basically, if you loosen the oil pan, you need to replace the gasket, (these will leak after) and yes, you cannot remove the pump without removing the pan. You'll need access to remove the oil pickup. Pan removal relatively easy, just remove the sway bar bushing bolts so you can move the bar around and remove the pan bolts. You can jack up the engine a bit for even more room. About a 2 hour job to swap the oil pan with air tools, and for someone with experience on these. You'll need a 10MM 1/4 inch drive wobble to get the front and rear bolts, you can also use a long allen socket. The other bolts are cake.

I dont recommend attempting to rebuild the oil pump...replace it with a new unit only...mopar preferably...it is not something you want to cut corners on, regardless of mileage. Also, if you replace the oil pump, you'll have a new tensioner bolt hole. Another critical area that should be replaced with new, rather than repaired.


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Last edited by Daytrepper; 04-09-2012 at 10:34 PM.
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post #3 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 10:39 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for you input Dan, I was hoping you would see this thread.

So a new oil pump 4663844 comes in a tad bellow 400$ for a new unit. It's kind of steep!

Why don't you recommend rebuilding a factory unit? Can't all the wear parts be replaced?
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post #4 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paintballdude05 View Post
Thanks for you input Dan, I was hoping you would see this thread.

So a new oil pump 4663844 comes in a tad bellow 400$ for a new unit. It's kind of steep!

Why don't you recommend rebuilding a factory unit? Can't all the wear parts be replaced?
Not sure if replacement parts are available for our oil pumps...mainly. I'd be surprised if they were.

They are built to very tight tolerances, and contained in an aluminum housing, with a steel rotor, so wear in the housing is almost certain....that you wont be able to fix..not worth risking your engine, or oil pressure issues....IMO...

The old cast pumps you could rebuild no problem, newer aluminum ones....well....
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post #5 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 11:28 PM Thread Starter
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All the parts are available from Chrysler and the FSM describes in detail how to rebuild them. So, I'm guessing they were meant to be rebuilt. I found one place online selling new ones, from mopar for cheap so I'll investigate that.
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post #6 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-09-2012, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by paintballdude05 View Post
All the parts are available from Chrysler and the FSM describes in detail how to rebuild them. So, I'm guessing they were meant to be rebuilt. I found one place online selling new ones, from mopar for cheap so I'll investigate that.
More power then....alternator, starter, I'd have no issue rebuilding, but an oil pump, in our sensitive engines, new...this is NOT an area to cut costs...if that is your main reason for rebuilding, forget it....JMO.

I'd rather have a new casting, esp dealing with an aluminum oil pump. IMO, $400 for all new stuff is chump change compared to an engine swap.
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post #7 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-10-2012, 07:06 AM
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That says a lot about our times when we consider $400 for just one part of many that we replace as part of a bigger job "chump change". Arghh!
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post #8 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-10-2012, 08:47 PM Thread Starter
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Well I nearly had a heart attack on my way home. After taking off from a stop light the car shut itself off. I immediately thought my timing belt broke/ had slacked off. But, the CEL came on so I checked the codes. I got over half a dozen of them so I figured it wasn't the belt. Most of them came back as sensor faults. A quick call to Ross and he suggested I check the PCM plugs. Well sure enough the 2nd one in from the motor side had just slightly popped off. I pushed it back on and the car started right up, thank god.

Anyways, from all the input on the forum it looks like I will for sure have to drop the pan to get the oil pump out. It was also suggested by Bob Day that I check the clearances and possibly replace the crank bearings. I've heard fixed ideas behind just replacing the bearings and not having the crank surface done.

Thanks for the help guys, it's much appreciated!

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post #9 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-11-2012, 05:38 PM
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I don't know if I would just replace the main bearings.
That is taking too many risks IMO.
If it ain't broke, don't f**k with it in this case.

If you change the oil regularly and maintain the motor, the bearings should be fine.
You have done an analysis on the oil haven't you?
That is a good tell-tale sign of trouble.
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post #10 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-11-2012, 05:39 PM
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BTW, I think Melling makes an Oil Pump for our cars for under $300
Melling is a solid aftermarket manufacturer.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEL-M341/

$205 from Summit Racing FTW

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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-11-2012, 05:45 PM
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Steph..

http://www.factorymoparparts.com/4663844ab.html

$223 for OEM....that close, I think I would go OEM too!!
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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-11-2012, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paintballdude05 View Post

Anyways, from all the input on the forum it looks like I will for sure have to drop the pan to get the oil pump out. It was also suggested by Bob Day that I check the clearances and possibly replace the crank bearings. I've heard fixed ideas behind just replacing the bearings and not having the crank surface done.

Thanks for the help guys, it's much appreciated!
Dont mess with the bearings unless their is a problem with them, and dont replace them without turning the crank...might as well just rebuild the engine at that point. It is not something to do just because you have the pan off.
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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-11-2012, 07:12 PM
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Dont mess with the bearings unless their is a problem with them, and dont replace them without turning the crank...might as well just rebuild the engine at that point. It is not something to do just because you have the pan off.
What he said....
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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-11-2012, 07:49 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by shadowvox6 View Post
I don't know if I would just replace the main bearings.
That is taking too many risks IMO.
If it ain't broke, don't f**k with it in this case.

If you change the oil regularly and maintain the motor, the bearings should be fine.
You have done an analysis on the oil haven't you?
That is a good tell-tale sign of trouble.
I've had them done at every oil change from about 200k KM up, I actually have one that I have to send out from the last change. Most of them have come out good apart from one that had a slightly large amount of lead or something.
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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-11-2012, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daytrepper View Post
Dont mess with the bearings unless their is a problem with them, and dont replace them without turning the crank...might as well just rebuild the engine at that point. It is not something to do just because you have the pan off.
I know that there's the obvious size difference between the diesel engines that I deal with and the small gas engines, but in diesel engines it is very common to replace main bearings without having the crankshaft removed. The only time we remove the crankshafts unless doing an out-of-chassis overhaul is if the crankshaft is obviously scratched/nicked or otherwise damaged... or if the old bearings show signs of uneven wear.

I have done the math and figured up that 240k km is about 129k miles. Based on that thought, I wouldn't worry about replacing them till after another 75,000 miles or so. But if a person has a high mileage engine, I don't see how there would be any problem with replacing bearings without turning the crank UNLESS there is an uneven wear pattern on the old bearings or any other signs of damage.
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