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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 12-22-2012, 10:05 PM Thread Starter
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I'm still learning. Captainmorgan, you say that there is no value in replacing the rear speakers? I haven't seen that anywhere else. Wouldn't some after market 6x9's be better? And I'll look into the sail speaker thing. Are all the factory speakers full range?
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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 12-22-2012, 11:24 PM
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I'm still learning. Captainmorgan, you say that there is no value in replacing the rear speakers? I haven't seen that anywhere else. Wouldn't some after market 6x9's be better? And I'll look into the sail speaker thing. Are all the factory speakers full range?
I wouldn't say there is no value. I changed mine to 5 1/2" components. I enjoy the rear stage, but recognize the front stage is the most important. I can hear the rears the way I have mine set up and enjoy the fill they provide. Obviously, more quality is better than the stock that was in there.
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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 05:35 AM
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I wouldn't say there is no value. I changed mine to 5 1/2" components. I enjoy the rear stage, but recognize the front stage is the most important. I can hear the rears the way I have mine set up and enjoy the fill they provide. Obviously, more quality is better than the stock that was in there.
I wouldn't say it's as simple as assigning them to have "no value."

There are exceptions, such as if you listen to club music, where the sound isn't mixed to be in a front stage listening setup.

Other than that, the better the front stage gets the less you need a rear stage. I have a nice set of amped 6x9s in my car, but as my speakers up front have gotten better I've faded more and more away from them. Now I have them turned completely off and it's the best sound I've ever had.

I will definitely stand by that you would get more value out of upgrading the sail speakers than the rears.

One of the big issues with car audio is that car manufacturers have ruined people's perception of what it should sound like. They put in setups that are balanced front and rear, which only makes sense for having sound for the passengers. People get used to having zero imaging in a car environment and learn to like "bad sound" that is just based on filling up the vehicle with noise.

Think about it this way, you would never turn your back on something to listen to it. Our ears are built to listen predominantly to what's in front of us. When you put sound from the same sources (same instruments or vocals) both in front and behind you, it doesn't sound like it's coming from anywhere. Again, it's just noise. If you build a system right it can sound like the band is sitting in front of you.

Now I am going to keep the rears going forward, but that's because I'm going to do some complex signal processing to create a simulated larger listening space.



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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by drynoc View Post
I'm still learning. Captainmorgan, you say that there is no value in replacing the rear speakers? I haven't seen that anywhere else. Wouldn't some after market 6x9's be better? And I'll look into the sail speaker thing. Are all the factory speakers full range?
Yes they are all full range, I missed that question in my post before.
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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 08:57 AM
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I wouldn't say it's as simple as assigning them to have "no value."

There are exceptions, such as if you listen to club music, where the sound isn't mixed to be in a front stage listening setup.

Other than that, the better the front stage gets the less you need a rear stage. I have a nice set of amped 6x9s in my car, but as my speakers up front have gotten better I've faded more and more away from them. Now I have them turned completely off and it's the best sound I've ever had.

I will definitely stand by that you would get more value out of upgrading the sail speakers than the rears.

One of the big issues with car audio is that car manufacturers have ruined people's perception of what it should sound like. They put in setups that are balanced front and rear, which only makes sense for having sound for the passengers. People get used to having zero imaging in a car environment and learn to like "bad sound" that is just based on filling up the vehicle with noise.

Think about it this way, you would never turn your back on something to listen to it. Our ears are built to listen predominantly to what's in front of us. When you put sound from the same sources (same instruments or vocals) both in front and behind you, it doesn't sound like it's coming from anywhere. Again, it's just noise. If you build a system right it can sound like the band is sitting in front of you.

Now I am going to keep the rears going forward, but that's because I'm going to do some complex signal processing to create a simulated larger listening space.
I have been to numerous concerts when they have surround sound with the "rears" exactly there. One notable concert was the Pink Floyd, Animals where the group presented the song DOGS, the dogs barking surrounded the audience.
I grew grew up with 4 channel radio (a station out of LA that was true Quad sound.
I maintain that sound is a matter of preference. Not all people have the same hearing capabilities.
My sails have been "upgraded" to high grade tweets as well. Makes a huge difference for sure.
All these upgrades are very expensive and experimentation can drain a budget really quick. I say a car system will never be what a true audiophile would appriciate and can be immensely more expensive.
I suggest reading from some of the numerous web site devoted to car audio and sound staging. Some of what you read will be opinion and some fact. Spend what you can and live within your budget. It can get out of control.

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post #21 of 29 (permalink) Old 12-23-2012, 02:33 PM
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I have been to numerous concerts when they have surround sound with the "rears" exactly there. One notable concert was the Pink Floyd, Animals where the group presented the song DOGS, the dogs barking surrounded the audience.
I grew grew up with 4 channel radio (a station out of LA that was true Quad sound.
I maintain that sound is a matter of preference. Not all people have the same hearing capabilities.
My sails have been "upgraded" to high grade tweets as well. Makes a huge difference for sure.
All these upgrades are very expensive and experimentation can drain a budget really quick. I say a car system will never be what a true audiophile would appriciate and can be immensely more expensive.
I suggest reading from some of the numerous web site devoted to car audio and sound staging. Some of what you read will be opinion and some fact. Spend what you can and live within your budget. It can get out of control.
Doug the examples you list are when the sound has been mixed for more than two channels. I have no issue with having 4 channel surround audio, in fact I think that would be great, but music is pretty much always just two channels. My issue is with having the sound for something that is in front of you coming from both directions.

You can get 5.1 recorded music for some artists if you're lucky, and it's pretty awesome. That would be an exception to my preference to not use the rears. With stereo music sources I just don't need them any more, my fronts can carry all the weight.

You're definitely right on how easy it can get out of control. The costs for some of this equipment gets insane.



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post #22 of 29 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 09:36 AM Thread Starter
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Another opinion

Here's Hardwareguy on the subject: "You shouldn't even look at 2 ohm speakers! The amp has an EQ circuit that tailors the output to the quirks of the Infinity drivers. It ALWAYS sounds odd to me with aftermarket speakers....and the EQ is why." I believe that what everyone says on here is true - it just proves that it all depends on taste and budget. I'm leaning toward 2 ohm speakers for the sails, front doors, and rear shelf, in part just to save money and keep the Admiral quiet.
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post #23 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-05-2013, 12:44 PM Thread Starter
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The latest

It looks like I might trade my 01 RT to my daughter for her 02ES for reasons that I mention in another thread. Her 02 ES has the basic system (no amp, no sail speakers) so it will definitely need an upgrade. If I take over her car, I'm going to install that large amp that I have in the trunk with some new speakers. I plan on keeping the old head unit. That brings up a couple of questions:

The head unit doesn't care about the resistance of the amp, correct? It won't matter that the new amp is 4ohm?

Is there any benefit to adding sail speakers to the new system?
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post #24 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-05-2013, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by drynoc View Post
It looks like I might trade my 01 RT to my daughter for her 02ES for reasons that I mention in another thread. Her 02 ES has the basic system (no amp, no sail speakers) so it will definitely need an upgrade. If I take over her car, I'm going to install that large amp that I have in the trunk with some new speakers. I plan on keeping the old head unit. That brings up a couple of questions:

The head unit doesn't care about the resistance of the amp, correct? It won't matter that the new amp is 4ohm?

Is there any benefit to adding sail speakers to the new system?
You are correct that the HU doesn't care. The 4 Ohm rating that you're looking at is for the output side of the amp. The input sensativity is what matters and that will just determine how you set your gains (it has impacts on sound quality as well, but it'll work regardless).

You can put components in the front doors and use the sail locations to install tweeters if you want to, but there is no reason to put full range sail speakers in with the 6.5" in the door. Whatever you do will need a crossover to do it right.



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post #25 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-05-2013, 03:49 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks again

"You can put components in the front doors and use the sail locations to install tweeters if you want to, but there is no reason to put full range sail speakers in with the 6.5" in the door. Whatever you do will need a crossover to do it right."

If I understand you correctly, it looks as though you are saying that if I put full range speakers in the doors, there is no advantage to doing anything with sail speakers.

In my ignorance and budget consciousness, I am planning on going with only four speakers two 6.5" in the front door and two 6x9's on the rear shelf. What would be your recommendation? All full range? Some combination of components and full range? What would be your recommendation for speaker combos (up to, say, six speakers)?

Also, what do you mean by "crossover"?

Last edited by drynoc; 08-05-2013 at 03:50 PM. Reason: One more question
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post #26 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-06-2013, 12:57 AM
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if you're going with 4, then go full range.
i've got 2 - 6.75" 2 ways up front and 2 6x9 3 ways in the rear. driven at 100 watts rms each.
(kicker ks's)
and the crossover is for if you use components. you need something to properly seperate the sounds for the type of speaker(woofer/tweeter).
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post #27 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-06-2013, 01:17 AM
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"You can put components in the front doors and use the sail locations to install tweeters if you want to, but there is no reason to put full range sail speakers in with the 6.5" in the door. Whatever you do will need a crossover to do it right."

If I understand you correctly, it looks as though you are saying that if I put full range speakers in the doors, there is no advantage to doing anything with sail speakers.

In my ignorance and budget consciousness, I am planning on going with only four speakers two 6.5" in the front door and two 6x9's on the rear shelf. What would be your recommendation? All full range? Some combination of components and full range? What would be your recommendation for speaker combos (up to, say, six speakers)?

Also, what do you mean by "crossover"?
hrmwrm answered your questions pretty well, but I'll still respond and elaborate.

He is right, with the four basic speakers all of them should be full range for that kind of setup.

If you're going up to six speakers, that means you're using a component set for the fronts which has the tweeter separate. That will come with a crossover if you buy it as a single item.

With that amp you have it's a two channel high power unit. I would seriously consider getting a nice set of components to put in the front and save your money on the back speakers. Unless you really care about the back seat listening to music too I would maximize your dollars with investing up front. You could still keep some simple speakers (stock or aftermarket) in the back powered off the head unit and it would likely be more than enough power for rear fill. That's what I did for years before I got really serious into car audio and I was pretty happy.



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post #28 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-06-2013, 08:01 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks, guys

I clearly need to do more basic research on the subject. I like the idea of just going with the stock speakers in the rear and then components up front, but it will need more study.
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post #29 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-06-2013, 03:44 PM
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I clearly need to do more basic research on the subject. I like the idea of just going with the stock speakers in the rear and then components up front, but it will need more study.
Yeah, that's kind of how audio goes. There is always more to learn.

I would say figure out your budget first. You can filter out all the information that applies to what you can't afford.
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