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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-10-2012, 06:19 PM Thread Starter
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After new head gaskets, timing out

Just put new head gaskets on my 97 lhs. When removing cam timing gears, I noticed they had alot of play. They are not keyed, just the flat spot on top of camshaft (not impressed). Figured I screwed them up taking them off (if you have done this you probably understand). Bought new ones and guess what? Same amount of play. So I put it all back together, just guessing and hoping the cams would be in time (I do have the cam shaft timing tools) and its out of time. Any suggestions? Turn it over and the marks line up just right. Would appreciate some feedback before I start tearing it down.
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-10-2012, 06:47 PM
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about the best I can do is offer a thread with the timing belt and marks exposed,, re check them first,,

First Gen 3.3 -> 3.5 transplant {56K BEWARE}

nice thing about first gens they wont crash the valves,,,
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-10-2012, 07:19 PM
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I don't know 1st gens, but do they have the same type D-hole setup to allow a couple of degrees adjustment of the cams relative to the sprockets like the 2nd gens (I'm thinking that's what the flat and play is that you mentioned)? What does the 1st gen. FSM say in the procedure on R&R'ing the sprockets, and timing everything? I'd say if you followed that to the letter, you should be good. If not, then you need to read and heed.

Last edited by peva; 11-10-2012 at 07:22 PM.
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-10-2012, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peva View Post
I don't know 1st gens, but do they have the same type D-hole setup to allow a couple of degrees adjustment of the cams relative to the sprockets like the 2nd gens (I'm thinking that's what the flat and play is that you mentioned)? What does the 1st gen. FSM say in the procedure on R&R'ing the sprockets, and timing everything? I'd say if you followed that to the letter, you should be good. If not, then you need to read and heed.
Yes, 1st gens were the originators of the adjustable cam sprocket for me. You will have to remove the caps at the rear of the heads and install the cam alignment tools. The miller number escapes me at the moment but, those are needed if you took the cam sprocket bolts loose.

EDIT: And you'll have to loosen the cam bolts again before timing it. I'd keep the belt on it and not do more than just loosen the bolts at this point. No need to re-time the sprockets. That part is complete. Now to add the tools to the cam back ends and then tighten the bolts.

Last edited by Adpros; 11-10-2012 at 08:08 PM.
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-10-2012, 09:07 PM
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I am constantly amazed that people do this type of work without referring to the FSM.

Yep - the cam alignment tool can be purchased, and there have been dimensioned drawings posted for machining your own. I don't know if the 1st gen. tool is the same as the 2nd gen. one. The OP did say he has the "cam alignment tools" - is he talking about the same thing? But even so, having them without knowing how to properly use them is another thing.
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-11-2012, 10:12 AM Thread Starter
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I had the cam tools on when I aligned it. Only thing I didnt do that my CHRYSLER SERVICE MANUAL said to do (also my haynes manual) was use the dial indicator to find tdc. Dont have a plunger style. Its funny you cant just use the marks provided. I have built a few engines in my time, some with adjustable cam timing and some milder just using the stock timing. Every one that had adjustable timing had DEGREE MARKINGS on the cam gear. I could also trust the mark on the crank. I love this car, especially the 3.5, but this is a pretty hokie set up to me. Sorry if I sound a little cranky, but I hurt my back working on this dam thing and i thought I would be done with it by now. Gonna get a plunger dial indicator and start over. At least all i have to take off is the intake plenum lol.
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-11-2012, 10:13 AM Thread Starter
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Oh I probably should have said the cam tools were INSTALLED on the back of the heads when I timed it.
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-11-2012, 10:22 AM Thread Starter
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Wow. Are the 2nd gens interference motors? Thats a lot of valves to replace lol.
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-11-2012, 10:52 AM
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Mostly, the 2nd gens just crash the intake valves. I do agree with you on the hokie setup of this cam gear arrangement. But, despite this, there are other things I like about these motors.

The later models finally went to a keyed cam gear.
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-11-2012, 12:50 PM
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You shouldn't need the dial indicator - just set the crank by the crank timing mark, and then set the cams with no timing belt on it, using the cam locking tools on the backs of the heads... Then install (LIGHTLY) the cam gears and then install the timing belt. The cam sprockets will have to rock side to side some amount to fit properly, this is why the cams are held solid with the tools and the sprockets are installed lightly. Then, with everything lined up and the slack taken up with the tensioner, tighten the cam bolts (using a wrench to hold the cam sprockets still) and then remove the holding tools. Turn engine over twice by a wrench on the crank, and re-check the timing marks.
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-11-2012, 01:38 PM
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Just depends on how accurate you want to get it. Total tolerance stackup is reduced by not relying on the marks.
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-11-2012, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peva View Post
Just depends on how accurate you want to get it. Total tolerance stackup is reduced by not relying on the marks.
True...
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-11-2012, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
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Just depends on how accurate you want to get it. Total tolerance stackup is reduced by not relying on the marks.
I haven't dealt with this much in the field. Usually, a screwdriver in the #1 or #4 plug hole has been pretty reliable.
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-11-2012, 06:17 PM
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I haven't dealt with this much in the field. Usually, a screwdriver in the #1 or #4 plug hole has been pretty reliable.
Hah! Also true - doesn't matter what the numbers say - you look for the highest point at change of direction.
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-11-2012, 06:32 PM Thread Starter
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Been working on cars for 30 yeare and have never heard of total tolerance stackup? What the hell is that? By the way, about to re install intake plenum and try to start. Did it just like the service manual said (except for dial indicator). Hoping and praying lol. Not much different from the way I did it originally. Have no confidence its gonna start.
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