Chrysler 300m Cam shaft positioning - DodgeIntrepid.Net Forums - Dodge Intrepid, Concorde, 300m and Eagle Vision chat
 
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-21-2012, 11:57 AM Thread Starter
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Chrysler 300m Cam shaft positioning

Hey guys

Got another question. Sorry for asking, got myself probably in a too big project with too little experience anyway I hope I can learn somethings from you guys.

The question is about the cam shaft. I bought my 1999 2.7 300m with a broken waterpump which I fixed and. The previous owner took off the cam shaft. Can anybody tell me if (and how) I need to time it before timing the timing chain.



thanks
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-21-2012, 02:29 PM
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Wesley - The FSM has good procedures and sketches in section 9. There's a clear sketch of the marks on the secondary chain cam sprockets (a single dot on the front face of each sprocket) and how to line them up with the colored links on the secondary chains. If you are re-using the chains, you might not be able to see which links are the colored ones. If that's the case, just rotate the cams to point the sprocket marks perpendicular from the valve cover sealing plane and count the links between the marks (should be 12 link pins between the marks). I'm looking at the 2000 FSM - Figure 56 (page 9-41) - probably the same Figure no. in the '99 FSM, approximately same page number.

For primary chain timing, it's Figure 70 (page 9-47 in the '00 FSM).


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Last edited by peva; 03-23-2012 at 11:10 PM. Reason: Corrected a technical inaccuracy.
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-22-2012, 07:15 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks, the help is much appreciated.
Will take a look at it and try and figure it out
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-23-2012, 12:38 PM Thread Starter
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The positioning of the cam went well I think. I installed the timing chain and lined up all the marks, then turn the crankshaft but it can only turn about a half and then gets stuck, then I can turn it back till it gets stuck again. Did I do something wrong and is thesomething broken or is this normal? the car is in drive with no handbrake.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-23-2012, 04:16 PM
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This might help (from 2000 FSM)


ENGINE TIMING—VERIFICATION
Correct timing is critical for the NON free-wheeling
designed, 2.7L engine. Engine timing can be verified
by using the following procedures:
(1) Remove cylinder head covers. Refer to procedure
in this section.
(2) Rotate engine until number one cylinder is at
TDC on the EXHAUST stroke.
(3) View the intake camshaft sprocket timing
mark. The mark should be 90° from the cylinder
head cover sealing surface (Fig. 37) on both right and
left cylinder banks.
(4) Count chain pins from the mark on the intake
camshaft towards the exhaust camshaft. Engine is
timed correctly when there are 12 chain pins
between the timing marks on the intake camshaft
and exhaust camshaft (Fig. 37).
(5) If marks are not correctly aligned, proceed to
Camshafts, Timing Chain and Sprockets, Removal
and Installation procedures.

As stated this is an interference engine. Possibly the cam(s) are out by 180 or 360 degrees and a valve is contacting a piston.
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-23-2012, 10:05 PM
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Either something is out of time like Mirada said, or you might be seeing what happened to me when I did my 2.7 chain: Apparently there was carbon buildup in the cylinders. The carbon absorbed moisture and swelled, creating an interference that wasn't there before I did the work. In my case, the moisture came from compressed air that I used to hold the valves up while I replaced the valve stem seals (I didn't have a water trap on my compressor). To fix it, I injected a measured amount of Sea Foam into each cylinder thru the spark plug hole and let it sit for a while, then sucked the Sea Foam and dissolved carbon out with a clear plastic tube taped and sealed onto the end of my shop vac hose and inserted thru each spark plug hole. Then I repeated putting Sea Foam in each cylinder and sucking it back out. The Sea Foam was totally black the first couple of times I did that. I kept doing it until the Sea Foam was pretty clear - about 5 times IIRC.

Ordinarily I'd be skeptical about moisture causing carbon to swell in your case since you didn't add moisture into your cylinders like I did. However, I get the impression you bought this not running, so maybe it's been sitting unused for quite a while and slowly absorbed moisture from the air?

There is a third possibility, and that is that something fell into or got dropped down into a cylinder thru the spark plug hole.

Whatever you do, don't force it to turn past the stuck point.

Critical question: Had you turned the crankshaft before you put the cams back in? If you did, and it turned OK then, then it's not a problem with carbon having swelled from moisture.

You'd probably hate to do this, but you could remove the chains and cams again, and if, with the cams out, you can then turn the crank all the way around without problem, then you know it's a cam timing problem and *not* carbon or some object in a cylinder causing the problem..


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Last edited by peva; 03-23-2012 at 10:11 PM.
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-23-2012, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mirada6.0 View Post
This might help (from 2000 FSM)


ENGINE TIMING—VERIFICATION
Correct timing is critical for the NON free-wheeling
designed, 2.7L engine. Engine timing can be verified
by using the following procedures:
(1) Remove cylinder head covers. Refer to procedure
in this section.
(2) Rotate engine until number one cylinder is at
TDC on the EXHAUST stroke.
(3) View the intake camshaft sprocket timing
mark. The mark should be 90° from the cylinder
head cover sealing surface (Fig. 37) on both right and
left cylinder banks.
(4) Count chain pins from the mark on the intake
camshaft towards the exhaust camshaft. Engine is
timed correctly when there are 12 chain pins
between the timing marks on the intake camshaft
and exhaust camshaft (Fig. 37).
(5) If marks are not correctly aligned, proceed to
Camshafts, Timing Chain and Sprockets, Removal
and Installation procedures.

As stated this is an interference engine. Possibly the cam(s) are out by 180 or 360 degrees and a valve is contacting a piston.
Notice that that check is with cylinder 1 at TDC (on exhaust stroke). Below is Figure 37:




NOW - be aware that when the crank is set with its sprocket mark lined up with the mark on the oil pump, cylinder 1 is at 60° after top dead center - not *at* top dead center. This next sketch from the FSM shows the timing of the primary chain (with cylinder 1 at 60°ATD). If your timing is off, maybe this info. will help you figure it out.



One more thing: I think it is possible that you could have had the cams on one head rotated 180° when you attached its sprocket as Mirada suggested. You should be able to determine that from the two sketches (notice in the 2nd sketch, the position of the notch in the front end of each exhaust cam shaft when the crank mark is lined up with the oil pump mark - the notch on the passenger side exhaust cam is pointing straight up, the one on the driver's side is at about the 2 o'clock position.


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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-24-2012, 07:29 AM Thread Starter
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hey guys, Indeed I bought it non-running. The timing looks just like in the pictures with at most 1 timing link off the oil pump(can't see it perfectly as I still got my oil cooler in it).

After doing some research and your advices I think my best bet is to take off the cylinder head look for valve damage, maybe the previous owner messed that up. or maybe there is carbon buildup, the engine has been standing for a while so anything is possible

I will update tomorrow thanks guys
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-26-2012, 11:21 AM Thread Starter
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Sorry for the late update. Got a bit in trouble yesterday as I didn't have a 12mm allen wrench and shops are closed at sunday's here
Anyway I managed to get one cylinder head off. There was (what I suspect to be) carbon.





For the rest I saw that one cylinder has a tiny scratch. Does this hurt anything? Can I do something about it? (f.e. barn it). And when one bolt fell in the oil pan, I notice that there is quite some slack in there. Do you guys recommend me to clean it before performing a engine clean..


This thursday i will take off the other half of the cylinder head and test the valves. I expect that something worse will be under that as I saw today that one rocker arm is broken. Anyway will update here thursday thanks guys
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-26-2012, 02:45 PM
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I guess if there's a broken rocker something happened in there to cause that. Hopefully the broken rocker saved the internal bits from damage. Anyway you'll need to pull that head for sure. Keep us posted. (I wouldn't worry too much about that scratch, as long as it's not hiding a crack) Also I have read (Allpar?) that early 2.7's were prone to sludging, which might explain the carbon build-up, but that is anecdotal. Has anyone here seen this on their own 2.7's?
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-26-2012, 09:34 PM
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2.7's are known for their valve stem seals going bad somewhere north of 100k miles. That lets a lot of oil into the cylinders. My valve stem seals were bad at least a year before I did my timing chain, water pump, and valve stem seals. It was using a lot of oil and had a smoking exhaust. After replacing the valve stem seals, to this day it uses *zero* oil between changes (at over 250k miles/400k km).

Read my post, no. 6, above. I suspect that the carbon in mine (which swelled up and created interference from moisture that I introduced during the work I did) was due to driving it for over a year with the bad valve stem seals.

I *strongly* suspect that you need to replace your valve estem seals along with the other work you're doing, and that if you don't, you'll regret it (high oil usage, smoking exhaust).


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Last edited by peva; 03-26-2012 at 09:43 PM.
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-29-2012, 01:50 PM Thread Starter
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Took off the left cylinder head and found that the piston is broken in 100 pieces. See my other post broken piston - what are my options?
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