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In need of expert help

1K views 7 replies 3 participants last post by  Big3 
#1 ·
Guys, I have a 95 Concorde with 3.5. It is leaking a bit of coolant. Visualize where the timing belt cover case, engine block, and heads mate up. It appears that the leaks are coming from that junction on both sides. I do not know if it is the O rings between the timing cover case and the block or head gaskets. Strange that both head gaskets would go at the same time so I am leaning towards the O rings. It is not the water pump. However, it is strange both O rings would go at the same time as well. My questions to anyone who has actually done this, can the cam sprockets be removed with the engine in the car? Got to remove the cam sprockets to get the cover off. Seems I read somewhere that one of the bolts that holds one of the sprockets to the cam is over 8” and the other is over 10” thus removal or at least jacking the engine up is necessary – is this true? Also, if I have blown head gaskets, can the heads be removed without taking the engine out of the car? Your first hand insights would be appreciated.
 
#2 ·
I just completed this repair on my 95 Chry Concorde 3.5L. It was not difficult if you are mechanically inclined, have the correct tools (including propert torque wrenches and a 1/2" drive breaker bar), and you have a spare car to use while the vehicle to be worked on sits in your garage over a couple of weekends. Order the parts first - get OEM parts from your local dealer or at http://allchryslerparts.com/ (very cheap, about 30% off standard parts proces for dealer parts). Get other parts at www.rockauto.com. OEM parts you will need are: timing cover gaskets (3 - two are the same and 1 is "L" shaped, they are only $2.00 ea and seal the two covers where they mate with each other at the edges, they are made of some spongy material), 1 dowel pin for the crank shaft timing pulley, 2 rear camshaft thrust plate seals (I also ordered replacement thrust plates since mine were worn - the camshaft actually contacts the thrust plates at the rear of the cyl heads). Also check your main serpentine belt tensioner pulley and the AC v-belt tensioner pulley since mine were both wearing out (bearings were squeeling) and new ones only cost $15-$18 each). You don't need to remove the crankshaft timing pulley if you don't need to replace the crankshaft front seal. I replaced the front seal since it was leaking and I had the front of the engine torn down anyway. If you have any sign of oil at the bottom front of the engine by the crankshaft, you need to replace the crank seal. You should also replace the camshaft seals as well. The aftermarket parts you need to order (try www.rockauto.com) are conversion gasket set (Felpro #CS9926), water pump (buy a new one, not reman), timing belt set (#AC Delco TCK255, includes the idler pulley that should also be replaced), T41002 timing belt tensioner pulley (AC Delco), red high temp RTV, new radiator hoses (order Gates brand) and new heater hoses (Gates). You also need to order two special tools ($15 ea) made by Miller, part #6642 (order by calling 800-810-5420). These simple tools lock the camshafts in place from the back of the engine since the tools have a dowel pin that is inserted into a hole that keeps the camshaft from rotating.

You have to lock the camshafts in with the Miller tools and you can't get to the thrust plates on the back of the engine unless you take the intake plenum off, and you can't do that unless you take off the windshield motor housing. You also need to use a dial guage to set TDC on cylinder #1 when re-setting timing sprokets on the camshafts. The factory shop manual explains all in detail.

Here is a website that has a few good pics of the components and some of the procedures involved on a 3.5L gen 1:
http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/ar40098.htm
 
#3 ·
You can take the heads off without removing the engine. But if the gaskets are blown, you will smell exhaust fumes coming out of the radiator opening. You will also have coolant spewing out the tail pipe while you are driving down the road under power (not to be confused with normal water vapor dripping out the exhaust at idle as a result of the catalytic converter chemical reaction). Its likely the water passage water seals or water pump. You will see water dripping out from below the crankshaft. Check out the virbration damper while the engine is running - if its not spinning perfectly smooth, replace it ($50).
 
#4 ·
One more tip - when I removed the timing cover that has the water pump and water passeges with the three o-rings on the back, the block was corroded where the o-rings seat. There was much corrosion on the aluminum cover that has the o-ring seat grooves. I had to use 800 grit sand paper and wet sand these areas to remove any corrosion or oxidation. When I re-installed the o-rings, I used a small amount of orange high temp sealer to coat the o-rings (lightly) to fill in any 'divits' in the metal caused by corrosion. Very important - make sure you torque the cover bolts precisely to specs and in the proper sequence to avoid warping or cracking the cover.
 
#5 ·
wow, that's quite the write up Big3. I'm trying a little lower level head gasket repair right now. As for if it can be done while still in the car. Yes, I have pulled both heads with the motor still in the car. I have the radiator, and fans removed, as well as the condensor. I removed the condensor because it was broken anyways. I'm waiting on gaskets right now. Once i get my engine back togather i'll let you know how it worked. If you have an engine stand, this would probably be easier out of the car. The left side is kind of tight with the PS pump, ABS and all that junk. Just my opinion
-Taaf-
 
#7 ·
Big3:

Manyy thanks. I am not experiencing any of the typical symptoms of a blown head gasket and as I said, it did not make sense that both would blow basically at the same time and in the same location on either side. But on the other hand, the coolant is leaking from a higher locations than where I think the O rings are. Even with this, I think I would rather tackle the O rings and hope they are the problem before jacking with the heads. To re-verify, I can get the cam sprocket bolts out w/o removing or jacking up the engine?

Recently I replaced the timing belt, tensioner, water pump, all hoses, and V belts. I literally broke a pulley puller trying to get the crank pulley off (yes, the bolt was removed). I had to install the new timing belt by working it around the pulley – what a pain.

Seems to me, and correct me if I am wrong or missing something, that if you turn the engine to TDC and lock the cams with the tool you noted before removing the cam sprockets then everything would be set when you go to re-installing the cam sprockets. Let me know if my assumption is correct or not.

Again, thanks

95Corde
 
#8 ·
Yes you can lock the camshafts at TDC as long as you get two of the Miller tools and use them. The crankshaft timing sprocket has a timing mark that aligns with the mark on the oil pump case. However, the gear is so small that you could be off by a couple of degrees and you would not be able to tell it as the mark could be off such a small fraction. This is why the shop manual advises to use a dial indicator in the #1 piston. Once you get the timing covers off, you will be able to see if the o-rings were leaking. It could also be the water pump o-ring as well but the water would be leaking at the bottom of the timing cover (front). If its leaking from the front behind the timing cover, it should definitely be the rear o-rings. You do not need to lift the engine up to remove the sproket bolts as long as you remove the cross member over the radiator. One tip when removing the sprocket bolts: as soon as you break them lose a few turns, use a shorter socket wrench and don't apply so much downward force to turn the bolts as there are only threads at the bottom 3" of each bolt and the hole the bolts go into are larger than the bolts themselves. If you apply a lot of downward force trying to turn a long wrench, the bolt will want to flex down and it will bind up the threads and make it very hard to turn loose. I found this out and thought the bolts were both corroded making it hard to turn. All I had to do is lighten up on the force I was using so the bolt wouldn't 'flex' downward inside the hole. Use locktite on the threads when re-torquing (clean off the old loctite using a brush on a drill). Torque the two bolts at different torque rates plus the required 90 degrees per the shop manual. DO not remove the Miller tools until the cam sprockets are torqued per specs and use a large adjustable wrench to hold the sprockets while you are (1) breaking the bolts loose and (2) re-tighteneing them, as the Miller tool may not be designed to keep the camshafts from turning when using the force needed to do this. If you have to remove the crank timing sprocket, use a nice size puller and thread the bolts in as far as they will go as it was a ***** to get mine off. I only needed to remove this as I had to get the oil pump off to replace the seal and gasket.
 
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