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Frustration is mounting, so close yet not there!

5K views 39 replies 8 participants last post by  234on87 
#1 ·
I have a 01' intrepid that was a 2.7 that died, and now thanks to some persistense and daytreppers book, she lives......kinda. I had the car running about a month or more ago, but do to finally getting a new job after 11 months looking, i hadnt had any time to really take her on the road and get the bugs out of her. Ever since i did the conversion, she has been tight, not leaked any oil or antifreeze. Starts on first try , and now that i have over 100 miles on the replacement, the computer fianlly seems to be getting more out ot the drivetrain. There is a remarkable difference between the 2.7 and the 3.5, so much smoother, stronger, and midrange is real nice.
Finally, over the holiday, was able to rack some miles up on it, and was really getting my confidence built up to start driving it to work this week.


All was well, until i went back to the car wash, to power wash my floor mates. while there i added a can of r-134 to the ac and let her idle while i washed the mats. finally about 10 or 15 minutes later i was done, and lefft to so to big box store and get some upholstery cleaner. When i came out, there was antifreeze dumped all over the asphault under my car. Having visions of what it looked like when the 2.7 trashed out on me. i crawled under best i could and couldnt pin point a leaking spot. best i could tell, the coolant may have boiled out of the reservoir best i could tell. I tried to start her then, but would not fire. Waited about 10 minutes tried again, and she kicked right off and ran good going home. Once home didnt really notice any more leaks but decided to check things anyway. well found the cap was not sealing very good, and the pass side fan was toast. Today, went and got a junkyard fan, and new cap, and temp sending unit. the temp never got any higher than just a tick over the middle mark, so apparently not over heating. i checked the fam out installed it, found out the sending unit was wrong, so cleaned mine and reinstalled. and refilled system and after after a few minutes running, installed the new cap. It seemed like forever forthe fans to kick in, and they would not come on until temp was back to that middle line on the gauge. then the bad part came, i noticed coolant dripping from the area of the torque converter access plate. then noticed coolant comming from around the thermostat housing. trying to locate the rear leak, i couldnt see anything on top, so i took cowl and strut support off, thinking i might have a hose leaking or? Well, nothing, and the only thing i can figure it is leaking on the thermostat housing, and then running down the hose to the rear of engine and falling down. But i did not see any fluid up above teh starter where the coolant pipe rides.

I am frustrated, and cant afford to keep losing sleep over this thing, and i have been borrowing a car to use while this was down, but the folks are getting upset with me having the their car for so long. anybody got any ideas. i am nearly one hundred percent sure i put the stat in the correct way, and the rear leak still concerns me.

Any ideas at all.

thanks,

duke21
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Check that short (3-4") piece of heater hose joining the t-stat housing to the metal pipe from the heater hose/pressure bottle plumbing. That could have a hole in it, or the ends aren't enough on the nipples or clamped properly (from the t-stat job?). If you are in a high rust area, someone (Kingspade IIRC) recently had a hole rust thru that metal pipe that that short piece of heater hose connects to.
 
#3 ·
Peva,

After getting whopping 3 hours sleep and now at work struggling to stay awake, i tend to agree with you. I dont really think ihave major issues, just need to check out that area. I am pretty confident the t-stat housing has to come off tonite. It did look to be leaking around the bottom of it, so will likely take that off and replace tstat and gasket again. while there i plan to check out that short hose and the metal pipe. I am still confused as to why i am leaking around t stat. i used the gasket with a bead of RTV around it as well. I wouldnt have thought it to leak.

is best way to get to t stat from bottom. it looks like if i take oil filter off, and maybe push lower radiator hose to the side, i can get some good room in there. that pipe and hose that goes behind the starter is a PITA.

any other food for thought is appreciatedl

thanks

duke21

I was supposed to help a friend block sand his 68 dodge RT tonite, but that may have to wait, i got to get this car dependable.
 
#5 · (Edited)
If I read the parts pdf's correctly, it comes with the metal pipe as one part number. But I can tell you that it is a straight piece of 3/4" heater hose - nothing special about it. Personally, whenever i replace heater hose, especially that might be hard to get too, I use silicone heater hose. The quality and longevity of the standard heater hose that the part stores sell is crap, while silicone heater hose will literally last the life of the car and then some. Places that service police cars and 18-wheelers use it routinely. NAPA carries it - possibly your local NAPA store has it to cut and sell by the foot. It is a bit expensive - on the order of $10/foot. Suggest to use the factory hose clamps. Some people don't like them, but actually they are the best kind because they are "self-tightening", unlike standard screw clamps which can start leaking if the hose rubber takes a set (shrinks under the clamp).
 
#6 ·
well, been really busy as of last couple days, working lots of OT right now, i am on salary so i dont get paid for it, but after being off 11 months , i am thankful for a job. Had a bunch of honey dos to get done before i could get back on this car. I crawled all over the car tryiing track down the leaks and took the thermostat back off, and noticed what appeared to be a stain of coolant escaping between the block and the gasket on the stat. I bought an new stant thermostat, and felpro gasket, and cleaned up the stat housing looking for rust holes or cracks. so i installed teh stat with a little rtv around the gasket. put new hose clamps adn a new 3/4" hose from the stat to the heater tube. also removed what i thought was excess coolant in the tank. while i was under the car, i noticed a minor crack in the oil pan, so i did a steel expoxy job on that. I buttoned everything up and tested it out this evening. I bleed the air from the system and added coolant as per the haynes manual. as before, the car ran fine, and at idle took quite a while to get good and warm. typical running temp was just below the half mark. never got any warmer. I had no leaks and was feeling pretty good, THEN I heard what sounded like the thermostat opening up, and by feeling the hoses i would say it had. within a couple minutes the fans kicked in, and shortly there after all of my leaks reappeared again. I let it run for a few minutes while i tried to track down the leaks, and finally shut it off to take a better look. upon letting it cool, there was again, no leaks until i heard the thermostat open again and within a couple minutes had 3 leaks again at the same spots. Ready to scream, i crawled under while she was running and tried to trace leaks again. First leak was near thermostat again, and looking like coolant escaping under the housing about half way up on the radiator side. The second leak was on passenger side, and looked to be coming from just above tthe place where the dipstick tube goes into lover pan. best i could tell no seals or freeze plugs leaking nor noticeable cracks in the block. The third leak was again at the support plate for teh oil pan to transmission( i call it a torque converter access plate) I took the support off to get a better look see adn fired teh care up and waited till the stat popped again. after doing so, it was dropping coolant from what looked to be directly above the rear seal. it was diffenately in the joint between the trans and engine.

now everytime i let it cool off and start back up , she doesnt leak. everytime the fans come on and i hear the stat "pop" i have coolant leaks in all 3 places within minutes.


any possibliity the inner intake is cracked? what else could be causing this relationship between the stat opening and coolant dumping on the floor.

I am really in trouble on this , have been borrowing a car, and wont be able to continue doing so. the worries are affecting my productivity at work, and i am starting to think it was a big mistake to mess with this conversion.

I could really use some advice guys, i would really like to nail this down and move on.

thanks again,

duke 21:glum:
 
#7 ·
Just a reminder, i can drive the car, let it idle, etc and dont get any leaks anywhere i can see, until i get warm enough for the fans to come on which is approximately the same time that i usually hear what i think is the thermostat popping open.


I am really lost here guys, need some guideance, so i can get my daily transportation going here.

thanks so much,

duke21
 
#8 ·
Anybody got any ideas at all?

I know from reading all you guys' posts on here, that there are some pretty knowledgeable people around. I just cant believe i am dealing with something that nobody has experience with. I am usually darn good about being able to troubleshoot and repair, but this thing is kicking my arse. Not having torn down a 3.5 before, i dont know where to start looking, but i have to do something, i cant just sit on my thumb and hope it goes away.

I guess it is frustrating to know i can get it out and drive it with no repercussions, until i stop and idle or let it idle long term( talking 20 minutes or more) before she starts the spitting coolant ordeal. In a perfect world i would just live with it, but i am planning on traveling some in next few weeks including driving 100 miles each way several times next week to visit my mother when she has major surgery next week. also , have a 400 mile round trip coming up i would like to take with some peace of mind.

I just dont know what to do. I could really use some guidence, or even input of possible scenarios of why she doesnt leak until it sounds like the stat opening, then it seems to go nuts with all 3 leaks at once. I cannot picture what the thermostat opening up would have to do with several leaks at once. Theres gotta to be some good input from some of you guys out there. I know its not as glamourous to talk about a leaking engine, in lieu of a great paint job, stereo, or high performance part, but i sure would be grateful for some help.

thanks so much,

god bless,

duke21
 
#9 · (Edited)
I'm stumped. I'm surprised that you can hear the thermostat opening. I don't think of that as a sudden event, but a gradual thing. I could be wrong. I hope you get it figured out.

The leak near the rear of the engine - is that possibly dripping down from the heater hose/pressure bottle plumbing having sprung a leak. I'd have to look at it as each leak being its own separate problem needing a new hose or gasket, but then, I'm not there.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Just some random thoughts here... PEVA is right on with what he's saying, and I don't know the second gen 3.5 motors at all, but I know that Dodge has a knack for having LOTS of joints and short rubber hoses. Each of them is suspect, especially if you had a junk yard motor. One leak up high on the motor can run lots of places and you may just have a single leak that is spreading to three points.

Could the thermostat be installed backwards?

Did you properly bleed the system each time you've had a leak and refilled?

Did you repair the blown fan?

Do you have heat when you turn on the vents?

Did you test or replace the radiator cap?

Is the front of the radiator clean? (suggestion from another thread - Thanks Dan)
 
#11 ·
From what you are describing, your leaks are pressure related. I've never heard a thermostat open. All is good until the thermostat opens, then pressure is building up (I think...) causing your leaks.

Do your leaks happen w/o the radiator cap? What about the coolant reservoir, aren't they are self bleeding?
 
#12 ·
wow , i am grateful, somebodys talking, i was beginning to think i had been black listed. Anyhow, The radiator cap is replaced. i thoroughly cleaned the reservoir and the radiator while they where out. I flushed the heater core when engine was out. i flushed the block when engine was out. I have replaced every hose with the exception of the larger one from the bottom of reservoir to the metal tube. I have crawled all over that engine with cowl cover off and even had the radiator support off earlier when i installed the junkyard fan assy , which is working. I double checked the t stat when i installed it. I even put some rtv silicon around the t-stat gasket to help it seal. I dont see a drop coming from the hoses anywhere. The Reservoir has boiled over at the top escape hole, but i think i had the system overfilled. I have a new pressure relief cap. I cannot see fluid leaking down the sides of the block anywhere. The leak on the t-stat side appears to be coming from the gasket area, which i inspected for bad spots, and checked for warpage. The leak on the rear looks like it is coming from above the rear seal. It is not on outside of engine, but drips down in front of torque converter with the oilpan to trans support removed. The passenger side leak is dripping down below the dipstick tube where it mates to the oil pan, but cannot pin point where above it is coming out. I have had a mirror up there and cant seem to pinpoint it.

As far as the t-stat opening. the pellet and spring side are in the block as per the haynes manual. And as far as hearing it is concerned. my engine is not a rattle box, actually purty quiet, and when the engine is still cool the fans are not running , so wiht the radio turned down i diffenately am hearing a ping which seems to sound a lot like the old thermostats popping open when you test them on the stove with a pale of water. And the timing of the ping and the fans coming on and the leaks, all make me think i have an issue with pressure once the stat opens up. I have NO, again NO leaks anywhere until the PING and the Fans kick on.

I think i am going to drain the pan and check for coolant in the oil( none is showing on dipstick) and i dont feel i have a big trail of white smoke out of tailpipe.

I read somewhere where the water line that goes under the lower intake manifold can go bad or the seal fail, and i can see where possibly when the pressure builds up it would start to leak. But without knowing the inside of this engine a bit better, i dont know how the coolant would get from there to where it is leaking now.

I am just lost.

Thanks for all your help

duke21
 
#13 ·
Bottom of the intake is a good thing to check, sounds like you have a loose or missing hose clamp. I had a pickle of a time finding a leak on one of mine once, turns out the factory clamp had lost strength, so I just put a wormgear clamp behind it, and torqued it down... problem solved. Mine, however, leaked with no pressure applied. The heater hoses on the fire wall have been troublesome for me in the past on other cars, and I think on the second gen they are really hidden from view - maybe remove the strut brace and intake hosing, and check for leaks there...
 
#14 ·
Agreed, and check the heater pipe underneath the lower intake where it mounts into the intake manifold. If the pipe has been jostled or bent, (very common when salvage yards are ripping the engines out of cars) often times it will distort the o-ring seal at the manifold and cause it to leak. Shine a flashlight down next to the upper radiator hose outlet on the intake manifold and see ifyou see coolant in the valley between the heads. If so, the pipe or O-ring is leaking.
 
#15 ·
Also, can you rent a coolant pressure gauge from AA or AZ? I rented one three weeks ago, $100 deposit, return it, $100 back.

You might try pumping the pressure up to 18 PSI and hold it for 20 minutes or so with the engine OFF. As that pressure drops, you should see where the coolant is leaking from. The FSM states the pressure should not drop more than 2 PSI in 2 minutes while testing at 15 PSI. the FSM also states never to bring pressure above 20 PSI.
 
#16 ·
What Dan is referring to is the diagram in the FSM pg 9-63. It shows the metal tube mounted under the LIM with the O-ring. FYI, there is a valley on top of the block where coolant can build up. There are several cavities there and a hole is drill thru each wall that allows 'fluid' to drain out the rear of the block (tranny mount area).

I'm still lost why coolant is coming from the thermostat area when it has been replaced, cleaned and gasket sealer is used.
 
#17 ·
if in fact there are holes in that area below the lower intake in which built up coolant or whatever can drain out of, then we may be onto something. The other night after i let it run a couple minutes leaking so i could trace the leaks, i shut it off and for the first time heard a kinda of hot water, steamy gurgling sound coming from the upper radiator hose mount on the lower intatke manifold. Since there is an o ring under there, i could picture that thing building up pressure when the stat opens and dumping coolant within. I just got a hunch we are on to something here. do most people replace the oring, or the tube and ring assy or ?

also, the system pressure tester, is this something that can be purchased at sears, napa , harbor frieght or somewhere. I have other vehicles i am working on and dont mind buying if i am going to be using a bunch.

also considering buying a new compression tester( mine has dri rotted hoses) and possibly the leakdown tester. any thoughts on decent ones without having to get snap on type financing on them?

again, appreciate all of your help

duke21
 
#18 ·
If the tube is bent, replace it, if its just the o-ring, replace that, and make sure you coat it with RTV when you install it...the seal isnt very good to begin with.

Pressure tester can be purchased at most auto parts stores, im sure harbor freight would have it too.

Ive had my $29.99 autozone compression tester for years, still works fine.
 
#20 ·
will be getting off work here in a bit, i have been thinking about those darned drain holes below the intake. Now, from what i understand the rear one dumps outside the block in an area i am assuming to be under the mounting flange of the transmission, therefore when it empties out that hole, the coolant will exit down around the torque converter which would explain my one leak.

I am assuming there is just one other hole??? ( are there more than two holes in that pan below the intake? This other drain hole, where does it empty outside the block at? I am guessing right now that it empties on the passenger side, just above the mating flange where the oil pan bolts up. If that is the case, then that xplains the 2nd leak.

Now for the stupid question. the thermostat cover is actually the coolant inlet tube , Right? Ok, if that is the case, when you have the cover off, and are looking inside of the hole in the block, there is a smaller hole that runs up at an angle going to what? The last leak appears to be coming out somewhere in that area, or do i infact have another valley drain hole from beneath the intake emptying out somewhere near the thermostat area.

After all of you guys' help today, i feel we are getting somewhere. if i got to tear the top down and fix things, i want to get in there once and get it overwith. I need a car now, and dont have time to screw with it a bunch.

Let me know what you think?

very grateful,

duke21
 
#22 ·
Well , been working a lot lately, and also have relatives in hospital, so no time to repair the intrepid. Looks like saturday i will get some time in on it. I have a cylinder leak tester, compression tester, and now a coolant pressure tester. I have the intake manifold gasket set, and the o ring for the water pipe below the lower intake. I want to fix it all right and get this baby on the track. I know i have to remove the fuel rails with the injectors, now should i just replace the seals on the injectors or are they pretty much reusable. Best i can tell they have never been out. the chrysler seals were a bit pricey, is there much difference in oem and aftermarket on these seals?

any input is appreciated.

duke
 
#23 ·
Just a thought...could one problem be that the t-stat housing is cracked and leaking? That might explain why it starts to leak when the t-stat opens. Everything seems to start crapping out when the coolant starts circulating outside the engine to the radiator. That would rule out the heater hoses, right, since they are circulating before the t-stat opens? It seems like it would have to be the connections between the block and the radiator or the coolant bottle. Doesn't that extra connection on the t-stat housing connect to the coolant bottle too?

Also, the FSM says that the little bleeder valve on the t-stat needs to be at 12:00 when the t-stat is installed. There is even a little notch in the rim of the housing that matches up with one on the rim of the t-stat to position it correctly. If those don't line up, that might create a gap in the seal....

Just thinking out loud......
 
#24 ·
hell, i dont just think out loud, i flat out talk to myself all day long at work. I do design work and am learnig several new pieces of software, the other employees get a kick out hearing me gab away to myself. anyhoo, I am 95 % confident that the t-stat housing is not leaking itself or the hoses to it. I have replaced both hoses, and when i last had it off to replace the small one, i actually brushed the flaking paint off, checked it all over, and then repainted it. after dried, i reinstallled the t-stat with vent up, and both new hoses. I would be willing to bet a chili dog at DQ that majority of my problem is in that darned tube under the lower intake. I was hoping to run a cylinder leak down test, and compression tests on everything to make sure i dont have other issues. But thats not looking real favorable. Thinking i am just going to tear into it. I just didnt know wheter to get the injector seals and put all new ones on or not.

thanks,

duke21
 
#25 · (Edited)
On whether to replace the injector seals, I would replace them with ones from the auto parts store - that will run you well under $15 total. If the store has Felpro, get them. If not, get whatever brand they have - they are pretty much a commodity, and no company dare make bad/cheap ones due to liability risk (wouldn't be surprised if one company makes all of them and third-party labels them for all the other "manufacturers").

Put a very thin coating of silicone grease on the o-rings just before installing them - things will go together *much* easier and with greatly lower risk of damage/tearing of the o-ring.

EDIT: On the leak near the thermostat, I can't see where a place would leak just because the t-stat opened - I mean the water is in all cavities and all internal surfaces whether engine is running or not, thermostat is close or open, etc. The only thing that could mean leak or not leak that I could see is the heat and pressure in the system - and yes - those rise during warmup, during which at some point the t-stat does open. But for it to leak based on whether the t-stat was open or closed per-se - I don't see that happening.
 
#26 ·
well finally got to work on the car some today. I have just too much crap going on, and working way too many hours to have a life. really needed to go into work today, but i have an equal priority to get this car back on the road asap. I decided to do some shortcups on diagnosis and dig in so; i first did a pressure test on the coolant. as soon as i hit about 10 pounds or so i heard coolant leaking. Taking dans advice i took my flashflight and looked down by the upper radiator hose neck into the little cave showing a glimpse of the the area under the lower intake. Well, sure as molasses it was a pissing out right where the o-ring for the heater tube under the intake was. So thien i decided to run the car away at 0 pressure on the tester and see i\f i rapidly built pressure showing a head gasket leak. after several minutes running i noticed nothing out of the ordinary. As an extra precaution i did a compression check on the cylinder that i thought was down on power when i first got the engine and it tested out great. Convinced the leak was the heater tube, i took it apart, and guess what there was coolant residing in the valley pan just like the pic scooterman had posted. so i decide to try something for fun, i got an extra gallon of water and dumped into the pan therefore pushing fluid out the drain holes. guess where the water was dumping( yeah, right int the torque converter area that i had mentioned earlier. i am not 100 percent positive on the passenger side leak, but the one i thought was above the t=stat was actually coming from overfilling the valley under the lovwer intake. I traced a coolant path and when the oring starts spraying coolant it was running down a narrow valley in front ot the driver side head right over the t-stat. So i started cleaning it all up and got the seals a going. checked all my flanges for straightness, and proceeded on. i forgot to get enough o rings for the injectors, it takes 12 altogether, not the 8 i had finally had to call it quits, got a big project at work tomorrow and so i got the lower back on, the injectors back in and some other tiddying before i had to quit. tommorrow night i will get the plenum on and test it out.

i certainly hope i am getting somewhere.

sorry i got so windy,

thanks all,

duke21
 
#28 ·
Been really busy again, havent been able to work on the trep for a few days. Been thinking about the O ring for the water pipe under the lower intake. I bought a new chrysler o ring that i installed. but am not real crazy about how it was seated int the recess for the the ring. I didnt get the upper plenum and whatever bolted down yet, so i think i am going to take the intake back off and reinstall the o ring. I know the chrysler part number on the ring is 6505692aa and none of my local dealers have one or can have one for days. the local bearing house and auto parts stores have been no help in crossing the part number over. Did you guys use the factory one, or where you able to get a replacement elsewhere. I would like to get this job finished tonite, but not real confident in reusing the ring i just installed. I installed with grey rtv and am concerned about getting it all off for reinstallation.

So , anyone have the replacement number or size. My original was distorted all to hell. Also, did you guys install ring on the tube , then push tube into the lower manifold, or put the oring in the manifold and try to press tube in?


Sure could use the numbers,

Thanks guys,

Duke21
 
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