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post #1 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-17-2003, 09:29 PM Thread Starter
 
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300M Engine Swap - UPDATE

I'm starting this thread so I can give a running account of my progress in the 300M engine swap. I'll update it when I have time (and when manage to scrub off enough of the grease that I can use the computer). Here's the situation:

I got the engine yesterday. It came in a crate, and looks fantastic (as it should with only 23,000 miles on it) with one exception. There seems to be a chunk cracked out of the plastic intake manifold. The car was in an accident and apparently that part was damaged in the process. I'm working on getting a replacement manifold. Major differences in the engine: First off, the wiring is all different. It uses direct ignition, so I expected that to be different. But it seems that on the 300M engine, they ran wires to each of the sensors, the injectors etc, and then had them all converge into one or two major plugs, so the engine can be plugged into the car's wiring harness with one or two steps. In the intrepid, there seem to be a lot more wires running around on their own (rather than as part of a consolidated wiring harness.) It doesn't seem that I'll be able to use too much of the 300M's wiring, but the sensors all seem to be roughly correct, so hopefully it won't be a problem for the Intrepid's computer to keep tabs on the engine, and run the fueling system.

THE NEW ENGINE IS WAAAAAAAYYYY LIGHTER! Yep, aluminum is great. This thing is so much lighter. We can't even budge the 12 dollar Intrepid engine that I have sitting around. It feels like it' bolted to the ground. But my younger brother (18 years old) and I were able to easily lift the 300M engine off of the ground. It's got to be at least 100 maybe 150 or 200 lbs lighter. I wish I had a scale that was good for measuring.

The exhaust manifolds appear to be different. They terminate further forward than the old ones did. So untill I have a custom exhaust done, I'll have to use the old ones.

So far I've been working on pulling the old engine out. It's a relatively lengthy process. I've pulled the manifold, and disconnected most of the wires and vacume tubes that go to the engine. I drained the radiator, and pulled off the tubes. I pulled the AC compressor, power steering pump, starter, inspection cover, and the bolts for the flex plate. Removed the bolts on the engine mouts, and I'm working on the lower engine-to-transmission bolts. The biggest challange so far has been the bolds that hold the exhaust pipes to the manifolds. I've been cutting through them cause I can't unbolt them. I've got 1.5 left to do. I've also unbolted one of the exhaust manifolds from the block so I can rotate it to get at the bolts on the exhaust clamp. I've also pulled out the fans so I have some more room to work, and I've removed the accessory drive belts. All I need to do now is finish getting those exhaust manifolds off, get the engine to transmission bolts out, and I'll be ready to hoist it out of the car.

That's where I am right now. Sorry for the lengthy post, but I'm trying to include as many details as I can, in case people want to know exactly what's involved in this process. I hope I can remember to keep updating you all every day.

Scott
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post #2 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-17-2003, 09:51 PM
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Awesome work. Keep us updated.
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post #3 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-17-2003, 09:51 PM
 
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I definately want to know whats involved.

the new engines *can't* have direct injection... they do have a returnless system though..... shouldn't be *too* much of a problem.. might have to make a new fuel rail, and probably will have to use the *old* injectors (so the plugs are compatible, and the ECU doesn't freak out cuz of different resistances).

the new exhaust manifolds should prolly be not used, as your current ones are designed for your oxygen sensors and such... it will save much work to stick with the old style manifolds. if anything, goto new headers altogether.

its a bummer about the intake plenum........ maybe you can try bolting the first gen one on? ;-) less work to do to get the new sensors and throttle plates lined up then.
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post #4 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-17-2003, 10:17 PM Thread Starter
 
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That was direct "ignition" (as in coil on plug ignition). Sorry if that caused any confusion. No, it doesn't have direct injection, but you're right that it does have a returnless fuel line. For the moment I think I know how I'm going to deal with that though.

I'll stick with the first gen exhaust manifolds for the moment, because they will fit my car. But I don't think the second gen manifolds will have a problem working with our 02 sensor. It looks to be the same size, and the location is comparable. As for the intake manifold, I really want the second gen manifold because not only is it better, it also weighs significantly less. The aluminum manifol is rather heavy.

Scott
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post #5 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-17-2003, 10:23 PM
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Re: 300M Engine Swap - UPDATE

Quote:
Originally posted by LymanSS
Sorry for the lengthy post, but I'm trying to include as many details as I can, in case people want to know exactly what's involved in this process.
No need to be sorry. I live for threads like this. ;) Keep us posted!
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post #6 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-17-2003, 11:11 PM
 
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Quick question. Does the first gen intake plenum bolt up to the second gen manifold? If it does it might be possible to adapt a 2nd gen intake for a 1st gen 3.5L (short and long runners instead of MTV) and plastic wont heat up like the aluminum. Just see if it fits if its not a huge problem, thanks.
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post #7 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-17-2003, 11:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by LymanSS
That was direct "ignition" (as in coil on plug ignition). Sorry if that caused any confusion. No, it doesn't have direct injection, but you're right that it does have a returnless fuel line. For the moment I think I know how I'm going to deal with that though.

I'll stick with the first gen exhaust manifolds for the moment, because they will fit my car. But I don't think the second gen manifolds will have a problem working with our 02 sensor. It looks to be the same size, and the location is comparable. As for the intake manifold, I really want the second gen manifold because not only is it better, it also weighs significantly less. The aluminum manifol is rather heavy.

Scott
Oh... for ignition, you should be able to stick your Champion Premium Gold Plugs in there and run your standard DIS ignition coils from the first gen. it really is the DIS that doesn't like platnum... not the engine.
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post #8 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-18-2003, 12:26 AM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lafrad


Oh... for ignition, you should be able to stick your Champion Premium Gold Plugs in there and run your standard DIS ignition coils from the first gen. it really is the DIS that doesn't like platnum... not the engine.
That's my plan. I've removed the DIS coil pack, and I think it should be able to mount up nice and neat in the same place. I don't think the plug wires will be able to run under the manifold, and I think the little plug wire extenders that reach through the valve covers will be a little too long. I'll have to work something out for that. Overall I don't think it'll be too much of a problem though.


Edit - In the following section I refer to the "plenum" as the "manifold" as it is actually the upper manifold (as opposed to the lower manifold which is nestled between the heads. I just wanted to put a note on that to avoid confusion.

OK, on to my first useful piece of information for you all. Unfortunately it's bad news. It looks like the second gen manifold is incompatible with the first gen engines. I don't know if it will fit the lower manifold bolt pattern (I suspect it will) but the problem lies in the valve covers. The second gen engine has lower profile aluminum valve covers. They look to be significantly shorter than the ones on the first gen engine. Now...I COULD be wrong about this, because I was just eyeballing it. But I don't think the 2g manifold will fit the 15 engine because it's thicker than the 1g manifold, and it fits very snugly against those low profile aluminum valve covers. So....in order to make it fit, I think that you would at least have to get the valve covers. However, like I said, I could be wrong. But I have to take off the secong gen manifold anyway, so while it's off, I'll try bolting the first gen one on just to see if it works. I'll keep you all posted.

Scott

Last edited by LymanSS; 06-18-2003 at 12:29 AM.
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post #9 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-18-2003, 12:39 AM
 
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SWEET, sounds like a fun yet difficult project. Can't wait to see what happens and how difficult it really is, cuz currently I have the 3.3L in my first gen and would like a 3.5L. A 2nd gen 3.5L would be really COOL, and then maybe a turbo....drool. Keep us updated though!
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post #10 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-18-2003, 12:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jer_BEAR_bluez
SWEET, sounds like a fun yet difficult project. Can't wait to see what happens and how difficult it really is, cuz currently I have the 3.3L in my first gen and would like a 3.5L. A 2nd gen 3.5L would be really COOL, and then maybe a turbo....drool. Keep us updated though!
that, my friend will be exceedingly difficult. The 3.2/3.5 of the two generations are VERY CLOSE in engine design.... the 3.3 and 2.7 are WAY off... so trying to get the computer to "think" it is the right one... will be a Pain in the Arse. the swap that is being done here, the computer just thinks that it is a first gen engine that all of a sudden has more power.......
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post #11 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-18-2003, 01:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lafrad


that, my friend will be exceedingly difficult. The 3.2/3.5 of the two generations are VERY CLOSE in engine design.... the 3.3 and 2.7 are WAY off... so trying to get the computer to "think" it is the right one... will be a Pain in the Arse. the swap that is being done here, the computer just thinks that it is a first gen engine that all of a sudden has more power.......
I guess I should've clarified, I'd get a new ECU and whatever else I'd need as well. I wouldn't even attempt trying to get a 3.3L ECU to work with a 3.5 of any generation.
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post #12 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-18-2003, 07:17 AM Thread Starter
 
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Ok, another update.

The old engine is out! After much struggling, fussing, cursing, and the puncturing of one index finger, the old engine is out. I'll tell you all something....this is not the easiest engine to remove. It's pretty tight in that engine bay. It's not impossible but it's pretty tough. I'm not particularly looking forward to the re-installation. Overall it's not impossible to do in your driveway or garage, but be prepared to struggle a bit. Many of the bolts are hard to access, and many items must be removed before the engine will come out without hanging up on something. The engine to transaxle bolts are a pain to get at, and we ended up damaging some sort of coolant pipe in the process of removing those bolts. There were a few parts of the wiring harness that we missed and had to disassemble partway through hoisting the engine. We also discovered that the transmission shift cable was looped around the aforementioned coolant pipe, and couldn't be removed easily. We had to take the coolant pipe off of the engine to free it. Anyway, it was a little traumatic but it's out now, and I don't think we broke anything other than that one pipe. Time to start preparing the new engine for insertion. Right now though I'm tired as hell. I was going to go to bed at midnight but we decided we were close enough to get it out tonight. There was a victory breakfast, and now it's time for bed. I'll try to post some pictures later in the day.

Scott


PS: I may have been wrong about the intake manifold fitting....I think it might, but I'll be able to verify that tomorrow.
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post #13 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-18-2003, 09:30 AM
 
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Oh MAN I can't wait to see what you have once you are finished. Would really like to hook up with you and take a look in person if you don't mind (I live in New Hampshire).

I am seriously thinking about doing this switch now.
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post #14 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-18-2003, 10:41 AM
 
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<is about a week behind you.... just ordered my 300m special engine yeterday
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post #15 of 84 (permalink) Old 06-18-2003, 10:46 AM
 
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How much does that engine cost?
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