300M steering & suspension again - DodgeIntrepid.Net Forums - Dodge Intrepid, Concorde, 300m and Eagle Vision chat
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-13-2016, 04:50 PM Thread Starter
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300M steering & suspension again

More steering help. Sorry it's a bit lengthy but want to give the most info for the most help. Ive posted a few weeks/months ago on various things Ive been working on in the suspension areas.
Still have a loose/ slight wander in the steering on the 300M. 225,000 miles

This really started after I swapped the engine/transmission via swapping the whole cradle (about 22,000 miles now)

Things Ive replaced.
Lower control arms w/ball joints TRW made in Canada (OEM supplier)
Lower control arm strut bushings
Outer tie rod ends
Gabriel (made in MX) Struts with MOPAR bearing plates
New rear struts (quick struts)
New rear sway bar links
Front Sway bar links
Front Sway bar bushings
Inner tie rod ends with MOPAR press in style.
Alignment. (2500 miles now)

>>After the MOPAR inner tie rod ends and alignment the steering wander drastically improved. But still vague and wanders some. Also when turning sharp, either way, it feels like the car kinda grabs in the direction of steering. Kinda wondering about the alignment too now outside of tires are wearing quick.

Only thing original at this point is the steering knuckles and steering rack which it could be I suppose.

>>What Im not sure of is why the problem started after I swapped the engine and craddle. Before that it was ok. And why not after the swap and then why havent the new parts cured it??

What else could I be missing ?

>>ALSO: a rubbing noise consistent with each wheel rotation has started as well. Most noticeable when backing up but still some when moving forward. Can only hear it at very low driveway, backing out of parking spot speeds. I thought it was the CV joints and since Ive seen some things on CV joints causing vague steering I replaced both sides (LH used about 120,000 miles, RH refurbished). The rubbing noise did not change and has gotten a bit worse with time (500 miles or so).

Could it be wheel bearings making a rubbing sound with each rotation? Both are Timken replacements with about 44,000 on them.

Any thoughts??
Thanks.!
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-13-2016, 07:08 PM
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Did you get printouts with your alignment? I'm guessing not since you didn't mention it.

It is important to get printouts (preferably both 'before' and 'after'). A lot of times that can really help pinpoint a problem - otherwise, you have to do a lot more guessing and trial and error.

It might be worth your while to pay a good alignment shop to just measure the alignment and provide a complete printout without doing an alignment - it will be considerably cheaper than paying for an alignment, but will allow you to diagnose the problem. We can help here if you post the numbers from the printout. Or - consider paying for a full alignment and insisting on 'before' and 'after' printouts for no extra charge. That way you will know what is causing the wear and if it is fixed by the new alignment or if there are remaining suspension or steering problems.

Rubbing sound with each wheel rotation - two most likely possibilities are:
1) brake rotor shield rubbing against rotors - often they get bent inadvertently wheel doing suspension or brake work (which you have done). This problem would vary with turning, or going forward or backward. But usually it is more of a high pitch squeak or squeal than low-pitch rubbing sound.
2) Car sat out in the weather for a while and the rotors rusted unevenly, particularly heavy pitting where the brake pads stayed in contact with the same place on the rotors, trapping moisture and water. You would see a "print" of the pads on the rotors if this is the case. If so, the pitting may be too deep to get rid of by turning - replacing the rotors is the only solution.


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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-15-2016, 09:50 AM Thread Starter
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I did get the print outs everything showed in spec. They did get a new machine though.
I may take it back for them to recheck

No issue with rusty brakes. None of our cars sit at all. Daily driver.

It's like a rubbery rubbing sound. Not a metal on metal like bad pads or heat shield rubbing. 2x worse when backing up

No clicking or grinding/rumbling like normal wheel bearing sounds
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-15-2016, 11:19 AM
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Thanks for the thorough answer.

If the alignment is in spec., especially the front toe, and there are no suspension/steering parts with wear/play, the only explanation I can come up with for the outer tread wearing faster is if you're consistently taking tight curves moderately fast - such as highway exit or entrance ramps that you routinely take every day. Many years ago, the treads on my tires always wore more towards the outer side. I finally tried consistently slowing down on exit/entrance ramps, and haven't had that issue since. Not saying that's your problem - just mentioning it in case it applies.

I just don't know what would cause that wear other than that or an alignment or worn part problem.

Feel free to post the complete alignment printout.

You might talk the shop into doing a free alignment check and printout if you tell them you previously paid for an alignment and you are having uneven wear problems. Again, definitely a check should cost much less than an alignment.

Re-think if you might have a bad or improperly installed suspension or steering part and convince yourself that everything's OK.

No sticking calipers (might explain the noise but wouldn't cause the uneven tire wear)?

You could try having a helper lie next to each side and see if they could locate the source of the noise as you pull forward and back up - if the noise is there at low speeds. Could also try jacking up front end and listening with engine running and tranny engaged to spin the wheels - but of course that would only work if the noise is not dependent on loading the suspension.

Precautions for spinning wheels jacked up:

• Of course use jack stands.

• If you only have one wheel off the ground while doing that, make sure you turn traction control off if you have it.

• Don't play around with spinning the wheels very fast with it jacked up because if one wheel isn't spinning (like if you have only one side jacked up, or a brake is dragging), due to differential action, the spinning wheel will be turning at twice indicated speed. So - if you spin at 65 mph as shown on the speedometer, it's spinning at 130mph. 90 mph indicated => 180 mph!! It's not pretty when a tire explodes due to being spun over it's rated speed - lots of vehicle damage and possible serious injury or worse. Advice: Don't rev it to more than 40 mph indicated (80mph actual) unless absolutely necessary.


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Last edited by peva; 05-15-2016 at 11:33 AM.
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-15-2016, 02:25 PM
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have you checked the bearing on the output shaft of the trans, drivers side for noise?
i've set my alignment at dead straight and it gives me a slight "wander" feel, my tires wear clean though.

problem with jacking up and spinning is it changes suspension geometry and can remove/add noises that aren't there with a loaded suspension. but it is a way of looking for things in the wheel area. backing plates, bearings, brake pads/clips scraping.
rubbery sound may be corrugations in the axle boots rubbing. i've come across it before. cleaning and a silicone spray might help.
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-16-2016, 10:07 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hrmwrm View Post
have you checked the bearing on the output shaft of the trans, drivers side for noise?
i've set my alignment at dead straight and it gives me a slight "wander" feel, my tires wear clean though.

problem with jacking up and spinning is it changes suspension geometry and can remove/add noises that aren't there with a loaded suspension. but it is a way of looking for things in the wheel area. backing plates, bearings, brake pads/clips scraping.
rubbery sound may be corrugations in the axle boots rubbing. i've come across it before. cleaning and a silicone spray might help.
Looked at it a little bit tonight
Didn't find the rubbing noise yet but. Had #3 (youngest) daughter rock the steering wheel back and forth and found

Both outer tie rod ends move inside the adjuster sleeves. The adjuster sleeves don't move relative to the tie rods but the outer ends move inside the adjuster. Didn't take anything apart but the best way to describe it is it looks the outer end is too small for the sleeve. They are new but are aftermarket. Ac delco.
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-16-2016, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
The adjuster sleeves don't move relative to the tie rods but the outer ends move inside the adjuster.
you mean move in/out as if there is no threads there holding it?
is there not a lock sleeve there? with a bolt to tighten to stop it from turning free?
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-17-2016, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
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everything is there.

The outer tie rod end has radial movement inside the adjuster sleeve. not really in/out movement but being loose I'm sure there is some.

I'm guessing they didn't tighten the adjuster sleeve clamp bolts.

My question is, has anyone else run across these coming loose due to poor (AC Delco or Napa) parts not fitting the adjuster sleeve right? or can it be only them not tightening the adjuster sleeve bolts??

Want to be armed with info before talking to the alignment shop. I'm thinking if they have been that loose for a couple thousand miles the threads could be wrecked too which might mean new ends and adjusters. No not expensive but if they goofed them up they should replace them. And if the "poor parts" might be the culprit don't want to get the same thing again. I think i know where i can get some TRW's (OE)

Thanks
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-17-2016, 02:01 PM
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Tighten it to the FSM torque spec. - if no more play, then you know the answer and you're probably good to go., except if the toe is out now, you need to get it re-set - perhaps why the outer tread wear.

Last edited by peva; 05-17-2016 at 02:16 PM.
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-19-2016, 12:57 PM Thread Starter
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The pinch bolts are tight and adjusters are tight in the inner tie rod threads.

Guessing the adjusters are bad from age and when the alignment guys heated them to get them loose.

Gonna replace them and the outer and see how it does.

Then figure out the other issues

Kinda getting tired of working on it. Seems like each thing I haven't replaced yet is giving fits

Thanks
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-19-2016, 07:06 PM
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Suggest you get the style of aftermarket adjuster sleeves that have the large hex. Just about all the brands have both types (OEM-type - with knurls - to be avoided, and the large hex grip type - preferred). Grease inner and outer threads real well to prevent future rust for ease of adjustment.
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-19-2016, 07:37 PM Thread Starter
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Ya. Ordered hex heads

I'm a believer in never seize and use it on most things. But not too crazy though.
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-23-2016, 09:34 AM Thread Starter
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replaced the adjuster sleeves and the outer tie rod ends (even though the old ends only had 15,000 miles).

when i took the old ones out both outer tie rods were loose in the adjusters. The pinch bolts were tight.

The LH adjuster sleeve was pretty well crushed out at the end in the serrated area which looks like it buckled it up a bit in the threaded area too.

The RH adjuster sleeve looked ok. i bit chewed up from the alignment shop but not crushed like the LH side.

put hex head adjusters in and tightened everything up to spec and all is tight.

big difference in the drive. still a bit sloppy but probably the 226,000 mile steering rack but WAY better than it was.

did a quick/rough tape measure toe adjustment but i'm sure its still out.

>>Moral of the story: use press in inner ends and if you change the outer ends change the adjuster sleeves too. and might as well do it all at once since you'll have the tie rods out on the bench to do the inners.

Now to figure out the rubbing noise and investigate if i want to put a new rack in before getting it lined back up.

Thanks for the help.
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-24-2016, 08:03 PM
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There is a little piece that hangs down off the knuckle and sits in very close proximity to the rotor called a brake shield. They tend to get bent a little with front end work or crud and rust accumulates on them and the rub on the rotors. Eventually the noise stops as they wear away. I'm not exactly sure what they do, but you may want to check the clearance on them. The tend to sound like a small squeak and sometimes if just barely rubbing will be intermittent.
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-24-2016, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by In-trepid View Post
There is a little piece that hangs down off the knuckle and sits in very close proximity to the rotor called a brake shield. They tend to get bent a little with front end work or crud and rust accumulates on them and the rub on the rotors. Eventually the noise stops as they wear away. I'm not exactly sure what they do, but you may want to check the clearance on them. The tend to sound like a small squeak and sometimes if just barely rubbing will be intermittent.
See item 1) in post no. 2 above. ;)
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