2.7L ethanol conversion and compatibility - DodgeIntrepid.Net Forums - Dodge Intrepid, Concorde, 300m and Eagle Vision chat
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-15-2015, 02:52 PM Thread Starter
Intrepid Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: yankton, SD
Posts: 99
Feedback: 0 / 0%
 
2.7L ethanol conversion and compatibility

I have a 2004 intrepid se 2.7L that is my daily car but I've also done a lot to help it along.

I am curious about what I can do to run this vehicle on 100% ethanol (190 proof) and still retain similar performance.

I know that the fuel injectors may need changed - I don't exactly know what I would change them to though.

I'm pretty sure the rest of the fuel system can handle it so I'm not worried there.

Next would be the computer. Can the stock system handle the timing or does that need changed?

How easily can I boost the compression ratio without adding a turbo or supercharger? ( that would be a bit odd in a 2.7)

Any comments would be appreciated
atomicfire is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-15-2015, 03:36 PM
Intrepid Pro
 
YesImLDS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Columbia, Missouri
Posts: 2,757
Feedback: 1 / 100%
           
You would need a whole new fueling system. Injectors, Pump, Lines everything to something that can handle ethanol. Ethanol breaks down rubber. So basically what you are looking at at the bare minimum would be.

1. New fuel lines
2. New Injectors
3. New fuel pump
4. Either a piggyback system or a custom ecu
5. Some sensors to tell the ethanol content (E85 is like 51-85% ethanol)
6. Something else I am probably forgetting

Now adding boost with ethanol comes together as a good combination. Ethanol has a high octane rating so with the custom ECU you could come up with something for sure, but all that is custom. At this point my unprofessional opinion says.... Sell the car and buy something already boosted and then do an ethanol conversion, but if you HAVE to stick to your intrepid my unprofessional opinion says don't do it!
YesImLDS is offline  
post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-17-2015, 05:26 PM
Intrepid Newbie
 
tf34mech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 79
Feedback: 0 / 0%
 
Please keep in mind that everything I'm about to tell you is from my own research only. I have no personal experience converting a car to run on pure ethanol.
It's possible to trick the cars ECU into using ethanol simply by using larger injectors. The PCM/ECU measures Air Fuel ratio with the O2 sensors as long as the O2 levels stay within the range of the PCM/ECU A/F ratio map you won't get a check engine light. The stoichiometric A/F for ethanol is 9 to 1, for gasoline it's 14.7 to 1 so you would need injectors that would flow approximately 50% more.
Reducing the size of the combustion chamber is the only way to increase compression ratio without forced induction. Ethanol has an octane rating of 113 so in theory you could go as high as 14 to 1. You may be able to increase the CR by simply using a thinner head gasket than stock but milling the head is the usual method to increase compression ratio. No much of a problem to have done if your engine is already apart but a big pain if it still in one piece.
There is a kit to convert any engine to E85 using the device shown in the link below. It may have enough range to run ethanol;
http://www.fuelflexint.net/shop/inde...&product_id=51
Replacing all fuel system components isn't as daunting as it seems and with a little research you can find components from Chrysler FFV's to use in your Intrepid.
tf34mech is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-18-2015, 04:03 AM
Intrepid Pro
 
bh1992's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Osceola, IA
Posts: 6,302
Feedback: 1 / 100%
                     
Garage
You are going to run into issues with your ideas. The larger injectors, it's a nice idea, but where are they available? Reducing the combustion chamber, 1st gens had valve reliefs cut in the pistons whereas 2nd gens do not, so if you mill down the heads and *try* to find a thinner head gasket you will likely run into interference problems. As far as the computer, it is set where it is set. I have yet to hear of any aftermarket tuners or aftermarket PCMs that could go beyond the factory tolerances.
bh1992 is offline  
post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-18-2015, 11:31 AM
Intrepid Newbie
 
tf34mech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 79
Feedback: 0 / 0%
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bh1992 View Post
You are going to run into issues with your ideas. The larger injectors, it's a nice idea, but where are they available? Reducing the combustion chamber, 1st gens had valve reliefs cut in the pistons whereas 2nd gens do not, so if you mill down the heads and *try* to find a thinner head gasket you will likely run into interference problems. As far as the computer, it is set where it is set. I have yet to hear of any aftermarket tuners or aftermarket PCMs that could go beyond the factory tolerances.
The fuel injectors would take a bit of research; it took quite awhile for Tidalwave to figure out that SRT4 injectors were plug and play in the 3.5 Chargers and Challengers for his supercharger kit. The Flexfuel device just plugs in between the injectors and the ECU and increases the plusewith of the injectors to bring the A/F ratio with in limits. The head gaskets wold have to be fabricated and checking valve clearance is just something that you do when your looking at milling a head just to see if its even possible.
tf34mech is offline  
post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-20-2015, 10:10 AM
Intrepid Pro
 
YesImLDS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Columbia, Missouri
Posts: 2,757
Feedback: 1 / 100%
           
4.0l head gaskets are thinner that the 3.5l from what I've read and you can mill down the stock head some as well. I was reading one of those 4.0 stroker threads and I remember reading one has both done.
YesImLDS is offline  
post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-17-2015, 01:23 PM
Intrepid Fan
 
remi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Toulouse, France
Posts: 122
Feedback: 0 / 0%
           
Sorry guys but... You don't have to do anything to run on pure E85 on 2.7L or 3.5L engines, if finances is what you are looking for.
I often drive my 2000 300M on pure E85 and the only noticeable drawback is a slightly higher fuel consumption and some loss of power. E85 being half the price of regular fuel here, I can live with that.
A friend of mine drove his 1999 2.7L 300M on pure E85 until he sold the car last week, and same note... Less power, higher consumption, but less money spent at the end of the year in gas.
My brother has a 1999 3.5L 300M as a daily and runs on pure E85 too.

From what I read on 300M/Intrepid ECUs, they should be able to adapt to the percentage of ethanol/unleaded in the fuel, at least up to a certain point, based on the lambda readings.
However lambda is not used at WOT, the only compensation here would come from the fuel trims which should update themselves based on lambda readings while cruising.
One thing I found (or maybe I'm fooled by my mind) however, power losses come after a long "E85 driving period". It looks like power comes back after an unleaded refuel, and goes away after 2/3 E85 refuels.

If you are looking for performance, modifications will be needed. However, hardened fuel lines, pump... I don't buy ;)
remi is offline  
post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-17-2015, 01:48 PM
Intrepid Pro
 
YesImLDS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Columbia, Missouri
Posts: 2,757
Feedback: 1 / 100%
           
Quote:
Originally Posted by remi View Post
Sorry guys but... You don't have to do anything to run on pure E85 on 2.7L or 3.5L engines, if finances is what you are looking for.
I often drive my 2000 300M on pure E85 and the only noticeable drawback is a slightly higher fuel consumption and some loss of power. E85 being half the price of regular fuel here, I can live with that.
A friend of mine drove his 1999 2.7L 300M on pure E85 until he sold the car last week, and same note... Less power, higher consumption, but less money spent at the end of the year in gas.
My brother has a 1999 3.5L 300M as a daily and runs on pure E85 too.

From what I read on 300M/Intrepid ECUs, they should be able to adapt to the percentage of ethanol/unleaded in the fuel, at least up to a certain point, based on the lambda readings.
However lambda is not used at WOT, the only compensation here would come from the fuel trims which should update themselves based on lambda readings while cruising.
One thing I found (or maybe I'm fooled by my mind) however, power losses come after a long "E85 driving period". It looks like power comes back after an unleaded refuel, and goes away after 2/3 E85 refuels.

If you are looking for performance, modifications will be needed. However, hardened fuel lines, pump... I don't buy ;)
I'd hate to be the guy who buys there new car from you. Can it run on it? Sure. Should you? No. The rubber and seals on you fuel system aren't made to handle the ethanol content and are going to deteriorate at an accelerated rate and leave you stranded. That and these vehicles aren't made to run on ethanol. You are asking for a whole slew of other problems by running it. Ethanol doesn't burn as fast as regular gas. And it burns cooler that's how you get the higher octane ratings. Now running ethanol without a car being made for it other problems like being a second injection of gas during the during cycle that the engine realises "oh crap I don't have enough to get a full cycle!" Causing strain on in interior of the engine...
YesImLDS is offline  
post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-17-2015, 06:51 PM
Intrepid Newbie
 
tf34mech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 79
Feedback: 0 / 0%
 
I've read on a couple of different E85 forums where they run their unmodified cars on it and discovered that even if the CEL lights up the ECU continued to adjust the AFR beyond the range for gasoline. Also in about 2004 E85 advocates discovered that the part numbers for fuel system components for the Big 3's regular and flex fuel version were the same. It's probably why they don't offer separate flex fuel models anymore or charge more for them.
tf34mech is offline  
post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-18-2015, 02:17 AM
Intrepid Fan
 
remi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Toulouse, France
Posts: 122
Feedback: 0 / 0%
           
@YesImLDS I think you are taking a huge shortcut about me an actually your reaction doesn't surprise me. I've read lots of post on e85 forums and you can see two types of people: the ones saying "no you can't" and the ones saying "it works".

FYI there is no CEL on the three cars I am talking about. Fuel trims readings on OBD tells the ECU is increasing fuel delivery to compensate for the 30% more fuel needed.
Actually running the engine cooler doesn't concern me that much compared to running on LPG which burns hotter.
And as far as you drive like a grandpa you won't be running lean/rich, these conditions would only append at WOT.

And I'm sorry but, seals and stuff... I don't buy! Ethanol was added to regular gas a long ago without hat much notice and everybody still lives happy !

One side note: all three 300M I'm talking about have EURO spec ECUs, that may help or not idk.
remi is offline  
post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-18-2015, 02:28 AM
Intrepid Fan
 
remi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Toulouse, France
Posts: 122
Feedback: 0 / 0%
           
One more thing, regular gas costs about $5.50 a gal, compared to $3.00 a gal for e85... If gas wasn't so expensive in this shitty country I wouldn't have taken the risk in the first place.
remi is offline  
post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-18-2015, 04:29 AM
Intrepid Pro
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Virginia, U.S.
Posts: 16,054
Feedback: 4 / 83%
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by remi View Post
...And I'm sorry but, seals and stuff... I don't buy! Ethanol was added to regular gas a long ago without hat much notice and everybody still lives happy !...
In the early thru late 90's, I worked on fuel pump design at a 1st tier supplier to GM and Ford and sat in meetings with the GM (Delphi) fuel systems engineers and received the results of their various percentage ethanol fuels testing, and I can tell you they were freaking out about the anticipated higher concentrations. The effects and rates of deterioration are very much concentration dependent. There were some inductors and a metallized film capacitor for EMI filtering that were inside their fuel pump (i.e., submerged in fuel), and their tests determined that the ethanol (whose molecules are so tiny that it leaches thru anything) would find its way inside the capacitors and totally etch away the vapor-deposited aluminum plates of the capacitors in a matter of a couple of years at concentrations of, IIRC, higher than 10 or 15%. As big or more a concern was sulpher (corrosive) in the dirtier fuels prominent in South American countries at the time.

I don't have a horse in this race, but just throwing in a little trivia to say that at least it was an engineering concern for above E10 leading up to and in the era of our cars. Perhaps the fact that they were anticipating the problem caused an over-abundance of caution in their selection of materials in the fuel system, but I know in their minds, they didn't have solutions for some of the materials problems. I know those poor little capacitors didn't have a chance. (I don't know if our fuel pumps have capacitors in them or not.)


'98 LXi - Later Concorde gages (black w/ chrome rings)/'99 LX - LHS gages (white) - HIR bulbs

Last edited by peva; 08-18-2015 at 04:44 AM.
peva is offline  
post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-18-2015, 04:36 AM
Intrepid Pro
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Virginia, U.S.
Posts: 16,054
Feedback: 4 / 83%
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by remi View Post
One more thing, regular gas costs about $5.50 a gal, compared to $3.00 a gal for e85...
...in the case of gasoline/petrol, because of self-imposed exhorbitant artificial costs (called taxes) that people allow to be put on themselves by their government, and for their own good of course.
peva is offline  
post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-18-2015, 06:06 AM
Intrepid Fan
 
remi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Toulouse, France
Posts: 122
Feedback: 0 / 0%
           
The 2.7 friend if I may say replaced his fuel pump when he bought the car, no sign of wear except the filter was full of dirt. The aftermarket pump he received was junk so he swapped the filter between the two pumps and reassembled the all thing... To realize the pump itself was working fine, electrical connections outside the pump were fried.
I will ask him I the pump had a capacitor but the pump itself didn't show sign of internal wear.

I'm a scientific myself and I work with experience, not Bigfoot stories or "someone told me".
Peva, thanks for this info
And you may be right, expecting the worse may lead you to experience with parts prone to failure, in order to recreate the worst case scenario.

About taxes, well that's another story btw ^^ and add to that green politics and you have a country where cars are about to be banned and economy is going to go like MH370 flight!
remi is offline  
post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 08-18-2015, 07:14 AM
Intrepid Pro
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Virginia, U.S.
Posts: 16,054
Feedback: 4 / 83%
                     
You're welcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by remi View Post
...I will ask him I the pump had a capacitor...
If it had one, it most likely would be incorporated into the brush holder, and may have been overmolded to keep the ethanol out (which it wouldn't - it would get in anyway - it's like sand - gets in everything) - so may not be obvious.
peva is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the DodgeIntrepid.Net Forums - Dodge Intrepid, Concorde, 300m and Eagle Vision chat forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

Member names may only be composed of alpha-numeric characters. (A-Z and 0-9)

!!ATTENTION ADVERTISERS!! If you intend on advertising anything on this forum, whatsoever, you are required to first contact us here . Additionaly, we do NOT allow BUSINESS NAMES unless you are an Authorized Vendor. If you own a business, and want to do sales on this site via posting or private message, you will need to follow the rules. Shops, Stores, Distributors, Group Buys without being authorized will see your account terminated.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Linear Mode
Rate This Thread:



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome