Stock air box or aftermarket cone-type intake? - DodgeIntrepid.Net Forums - Dodge Intrepid, Concorde, 300m and Eagle Vision chat
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post #1 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-25-2014, 12:34 AM Thread Starter
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Stock air box or aftermarket cone-type intake?

The cooler, denser, the intake air the better. Although the stock air box with it's panel filter is much more restrictive than the open cone type filter intake, I've liked it's shielding from the under hood temps.
A couple cone intake kits do offer a heat shield. I realized I had never really read how these heat shield's work out. I would imagine it's difficult to prove one way or another, unless a person could see that large gaps in the shielding exist, and don't shield the heat away very well. So,do the shield's really work?
What do you feel works best, a cooler, but much more restrictive stock set-up, or a much less restrictive "CAI", cone-type with it's smooth 3" duct work, even with a heat shield, but that might deliver a hotter intake charge? The panel and cone set-up can both have the same brand of air filter used, like a K&N, or Amsoil Ea. Both are available as a cone or panel. Most 300m/Intrepid panel air filters available are paper, but this is not about the air filter. Like motor oils, there are more opinions floating around about those two subjects, that almost rival politics/religion..
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post #2 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-25-2014, 10:03 AM
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I personally like cone with heat shield. My personal butt dyno says null in hp output, but after I put it on I gained 1 mpg over my whole range since then. I am sure there are a couple ponies you get from it, but nothing you will feel.

Also I like to think of the heat shield as a partially open window compared to a completely opened window. Completely opened window is going to let in a lot of heat during summer while a partially closed one won't let in as much heat. The gains aren't going to be significant, but it'll help at least in my opinion.
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post #3 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-25-2014, 02:32 PM Thread Starter
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Sounds like you do get some extra power from the cone set-up. It would be interesting to see what the Chrysler engineers could come up with without the noise restrictions placed on them. I suppose something similar to Joe's and K&N set-up. Maybe more flow from a different fender air supply set-up.
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post #4 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-25-2014, 02:52 PM
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Hmm.. I will need to post some pictures of my setup which isn't quite 100% finished yet.

I run the factory airbox but I hacked up the intake tube from my K&N FIPK (had a 2.7, swapped for a 3.5HO) and I have some Weapon R intake ducting I want to run from the front bumper to the bottom of the factory airbox.

This set up does have a bit more intake 'noise' and does 'feel' like it has a bit more grunt (had the complete factory set up installed when first running after the swap) Also I am running an AFE driflow panel filter.

I mostly need the weather to warm up around these parts and I will be cutting a hole in a factory box bottom (I have a few) and routing the ducting down and through, tho I am expecting a fair amount of heat to come from the one manifold and rad. But before I can run the ducting, I need to install the Braille battery I have sitting at home as well.

When I get home tonight I can post a picture of my current intake setup. It's not pretty, but it's in development


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post #5 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-25-2014, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DjGreggieP View Post
Hmm.. I will need to post some pictures of my setup which isn't quite 100% finished yet.

I run the factory airbox but I hacked up the intake tube from my K&N FIPK (had a 2.7, swapped for a 3.5HO) and I have some Weapon R intake ducting I want to run from the front bumper to the bottom of the factory airbox.

This set up does have a bit more intake 'noise' and does 'feel' like it has a bit more grunt (had the complete factory set up installed when first running after the swap) Also I am running an AFE driflow panel filter.

I mostly need the weather to warm up around these parts and I will be cutting a hole in a factory box bottom (I have a few) and routing the ducting down and through, tho I am expecting a fair amount of heat to come from the one manifold and rad. But before I can run the ducting, I need to install the Braille battery I have sitting at home as well.

When I get home tonight I can post a picture of my current intake setup. It's not pretty, but it's in development
Now couldn't you run a set-up through the wheel well due to the intake vents on it, or are you trying for the pressurized at higher speeds? I'd be worried about water getting into the intake that way. I would rather try to direct the air up towards the intake with some piping feeding colder air into it. I did something like this on my ford escort zx2 I had. Even made a big hole in part of the unnecessary frame. Worked out well for the time being!
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post #6 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-25-2014, 09:40 PM
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Well, I have the Braille battery to replace the factory battery but it will stay in the factory location, so the upside is I can basically have a straighter flow for the intake it it runs downward at 45*, through a hole cut in the battery box and straight to the front of the car.

The material the of the Weapon R ram air kit looks decent enough that I could heat shield the top half of it to shield it from the exhaust manifold and rad but I can perforate it along the bottom of it to keep any water from building up in it and being sucked into the engine. I realize that perforating it may actually cause a small loss of air velocity, but if its only concentrated along the main straight section and limited to smaller holes (something like 1/32nd of an inch small) it should be too much of a factor.

One thing I can do easily about it is to avoid standing bodies of water while driving, and carry a small 3 or 4 inch rubber ball to mount into the airbox opening in case of a rain storm to help prevent large quantities of water getting in.

Downside, I do not have any decent pictures of the intake right at this moment and my cellphone (main and only working camera) is charging. I should be able to take a picture once it has charged up enough.

Tho this is what the weapon R 'ram air' kit looks like (got it free from work, came off a trade in, we were throwing it out)



And to give you an idea how small this Braille battery is:



That is a 591ml bottle of pepsi beside it, and it weighs in at a whopping 17lbs! Rated at 1191 PCA, so it should have no issues cranking over a 3.5l v6


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post #7 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-25-2014, 10:34 PM
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Nice nice, I can't complain about a free mod and the weight reduction from the battery isn't a bad trade off either.
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post #8 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2014, 12:07 AM
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Should make for fun. I want to weigh the current battery as well to see the weight reduction lol, I am guessing at least 10lbs
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post #9 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2014, 12:30 AM
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If you modify the stock airbox it can flow just as much as as an cone filter. Honestly an engine is only going to suck so much air making the air filter so much larger is not going to change anything.

I run a stock airbox with a hole cut in the side where I had a semi-ram air setup. I have a temp sensor located right before my throttle body as well. While driving my IAT is generally 10 degrees warmer than outside air. Of course when I sit it goes up. With ram air this value dropped alot but not a OMG amount. I have run it with just a cone setup for a week felt/saw no difference.

And even with my (stock) airbox I have a stupidity crazy loud intake sounds like it will suck in the world.

70% of the noise you will hear in this video (turn it up!) it my intake.

http://youtu.be/FTRSH9F9yDY

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post #10 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2014, 04:35 AM Thread Starter
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At 100% efficiency everything flows nice, but then the air filter starts collecting dirt & dust. Every bend and ripples in an intake tube slows air flow. As the intake air heats up, it thins out.
I read somewhere our TB. size is 2.67 in. As that area starts getting gummed up, also the little butterfly flaps in the upper plenum, the ones just above the lower intake manifold section, must affect air flow too.
I suppose there is an equation what the 3.5L at 6000 RPM's needs for total CFM.
I understand when you say an engine needs only so much air, but things really must be on the edge when a dirty air filter can hurt efficiency/fuel economy. I don't know, but having an excess of free flowing air must help the engine breathe better/easier. We don't have the benefit of a forced induction, turbocharged or super-charged to fill up, and pack those cylinders like some have.How much do we need? I bet those Chrysler engineers who worked on that engine know. Anybody know any?

Last edited by Dave2004; 03-26-2014 at 04:57 AM.
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post #11 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2014, 07:49 AM
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It's all about resistance to pulling in the volume of air needed. Restriction does actually reduce the amount of air getting into the cylinders, as the density of the air is decreased with upstream resistance to flow - less air = less power. Also, it takes more energy to pull the air thru higher resistance - that is energy that doesn't make it to the crankshaft (think of it as additional force required of the pistons pulling the air in on the intake stroke - that exactly subtracts from the force that the pistons in the power stroke push down with on the connecting rods). As pointed out, paper filters have slightly more resistance than an oiled filter when both are new/clean, but the oiled filter quickly clogs up and becomes worse. Also, the just-cleaned oiled filter lets in more dirt thru those relatively huge holes. As it clogs up, it starts cleaning better.

The best filter for performance and cleaning would be lots of surface area paper (either very large filter - that's why they pleat them - to increase the effective surface area, or, say, two filters in parallel) - best breathing and best filtering of dirt out of the air.


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post #12 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-26-2014, 01:28 PM Thread Starter
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Our filter size is approximately 9.5"x7" that fits in our stock air box. Have you ever seen a comparison of the overall filter area between the stock filter and the size of a cone filter type offered in the CAI kits?
Could some of the benefit of the CAI come from a larger filter area?
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post #13 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-27-2014, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2004 View Post
Our filter size is approximately 9.5"x7" that fits in our stock air box. Have you ever seen a comparison of the overall filter area between the stock filter and the size of a cone filter type offered in the CAI kits?
Could some of the benefit of the CAI come from a larger filter area?
It's total surface area - which is greatly affected by the design of the pleating - IOW, you can't just go by outside dimensions of a rectangle. The K&N type air filters are initially less restrictive (and let more dirt thru) because they have (relatively speaking) huge holes - look at one under a magnifier and compare to a paper filter and you'll see what I mean.

Last edited by peva; 03-27-2014 at 07:50 AM.
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post #14 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-27-2014, 08:15 AM Thread Starter
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I suppose the most accurate total surface area measurement between the two, would be to remove the filter media from it's support screen, get the pleats to lay down flat ( lay a piece of glass over), and measure.
It would be interesting if a member had a before & after oil analysis from Blackstone Labs, with the only change being a K&N filter. I have heard they report more silicon using it's air filter, which could be dirt getting past the filter. Not good, no matter the air flow.

Last edited by Dave2004; 03-27-2014 at 08:22 AM.
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post #15 of 37 (permalink) Old 03-27-2014, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2004 View Post
I suppose the most accurate total surface area measurement between the two, would be to remove the filter media from it's support screen, get the pleats to lay down flat ( lay a piece of glass over), and measure.
It would be interesting if a member had a before & after oil analysis from Blackstone Labs, with the only change being a K&N filter. I have heard they report more silicon using it's air filter, which could be dirt getting past the filter. Not good, no matter the air flow.
I have had my K&N since I have owned my car, the three times I have used Blackstone my silicon has never been anything close to worry about. So it does at least work enough.
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