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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-28-2005, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by 00ChryslerIntrepid
Too bad GM didn't set the standard when it comes to interior materials fit/finish and quality... they only met (presumably) the standard set by other makes.
Quality? GM's interior last a lot longer then Toyota's or Honda's. I've seen the interior of Toyota/Honda cars after 8 -10 years and trust me, they look horrible. The plastic breaks apart and scratches at ANYTHING. Plastic bits start breaking off and when running your hand along most plastic interior components, all you feel is "grit" of the plastic that's breaking off.

As far as seats, they rip and rip fast. The quality and design of the seats in my Omni GLH were of higher caliber then most toyota's I've driven half it's age.

GM may not have set the bar when it comes to interiors, but I have yet to see a Toyota or Honda that has come close GM/DCX standards.

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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-28-2005, 09:28 AM
 
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My friend's 97 Pontiac Grand Prix is a prime example of GM's cheap plastic frontier. Every piece squeaks, feels really brittle, and doesn't fit together anywhere near as good as it should have.

First-gen LH interiors left a lot to be desired as well.

On the other hand, I've been in a few 97 Accords who's interiors are better in every respect.

Last edited by 00ChryslerIntrepid; 09-28-2005 at 09:33 AM.
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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-28-2005, 07:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Stock04Intrepid
You don't actually get torque multiplication with a TC. If the engine produces 100ft.lbs of torque, unless the TC is locked up, you will never see over 100ft.lbs of torque going into the transmission.
You actually do. I think you're confusing efficiency with multiplication. But yeah, you can't get 100% efficiency unless you're locked up.

Brief snippet from TC article:

"The torque multiplier effect means that a vehicle equipped with an automatic transmission and torque converter will output more torque to the drive wheels than the engine is actually producing. This occurs while the converter is in its "stall mode" (when the turbine is spinning considerably slower than the pump) and during vehicle acceleration. Torque multiplication rapidly decreases until it reaches a ratio of 1:1 (no torque increase over crankshaft torque.) A typical torque converter will have a torque multiplication ratio in the area of 2.5:1. The main point to remember is that all properly functioning torque converters do indeed multiply torque during initial acceleration. The more drastic the change in fluid path caused by the stator from its "natural" return path, the higher the torque multiplication ratio a given converter will have. Torque multiplication does not occur with a manual transmission clutch and pressure plate; hence the need for heavy flywheels, very high numerical gear ratios, and high launch rpm. A more detailed discussion of torque multiplication can get very confusing to the layman as high multiplication ratios can be easily considered the best choice when in fact more variables must be included in the decision. Remember, the ratio is still a factor of the engine torque in the relevant range of the torque converter stall speed, i.e.: a converter with a multiplication ratio of 2.5:1 that stalls 3000 rpm will produce 500 ft.-lbs. of torque at the instance of full throttle acceleration if its coupled to an engine producing 200 ft.-lbs. of torque at 3000 rpm. However, if this same engine produces 300 ft.-lbs. of torque at 4000 rpm, we would be better off with a converter that stalled 4000 rpm with only a 2.0:1 torque multiplication ratio, i.e.: 300 x 2.0 = 600 ft.-lbs. at initial acceleration. Of course it would be better yet to have a 2.5:1 ratio with the 4000 rpm in this example (provided his combination still allows the suspension to work and the tires don't spin.) This is just a brief overview as the actual scenarios are endless."

Last edited by BadBob; 09-28-2005 at 07:27 PM.
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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-28-2005, 08:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00ChryslerIntrepid
My friend's 97 Pontiac Grand Prix is a prime example of GM's cheap plastic frontier. Every piece squeaks, feels really brittle, and doesn't fit together anywhere near as good as it should have.

First-gen LH interiors left a lot to be desired as well.

On the other hand, I've been in a few 97 Accords who's interiors are better in every respect.
Oh, so that must prove that Japanese cars are far superior.
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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-28-2005, 09:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Spinnaker
Oh, so that must prove that Japanese cars are far superior.
It doesn't prove anything. It's anecdotal... just like Stock04Intrepid's experiences.

On the whole, though, GM should be setting more standards, not constantly playing catch-up.
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post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-28-2005, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00ChryslerIntrepid
On the whole, though, GM should be setting more standards, not constantly playing catch-up.
BINGO!!!
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post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-29-2005, 02:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00ChryslerIntrepid
It doesn't prove anything. It's anecdotal... just like Stock04Intrepid's experiences.

On the whole, though, GM should be setting more standards, not constantly playing catch-up.
Just like my experience with my own Grand Prix, granted it is a 2003, it has traveled 75,000 miles and has maybe two trouble spots, which are just dings in the door panels from a careless former owner... one of these days I'll fix it :P. But yeah, in my experience I have never had a single problem with GM interiors beyond normal wear and tear (as far as leather goes), and that experience dates back to a 1986 Pontiac 6000 STE and a 198x GMC Vandura with a StarCraft conversion van kit, and a 1968 Corvette Stingray, many GM's in the family, with another possibly on the way, and we couldn't be happier. But then, I have heard horror stories of one particular GM truck/van that had a rusted through roof, and the engine actually caught fire. I don't believe it, but then I guess anything is possible.

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post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-29-2005, 08:10 PM
 
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every 73-87 chevy truck I've ever owned has had that problem where the door panel plastic crystallizes and turns into dust, that's about it.
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post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-30-2005, 05:33 AM
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doesn't do that on my sisters '98 Tahoe :P
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post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-02-2005, 11:38 PM
 
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I haven't seen it on any 88s so far either. Maybe they changed the material?
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post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-03-2005, 02:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00ChryslerIntrepid
My friend's 97 Pontiac Grand Prix is a prime example of GM's cheap plastic frontier. Every piece squeaks, feels really brittle, and doesn't fit together anywhere near as good as it should have.

First-gen LH interiors left a lot to be desired as well.

On the other hand, I've been in a few 97 Accords who's interiors are better in every respect.
And my GP's interior has no issues, no squeaks or rattles, and has been taken apart a few times for gauges, stereo and a/f controller. My '99 Honda Accord V6 coupe on the other hand had gaps, squeeked after 4 months of ownership and scratched every time you looked at it wrong. Let's not even get started on mechanical issues.

Any car can have issues, squeeks, rattles, etc, generalizations about one being better than another on average are pointless and moot. Most of the talk about vastly superior import quality/durability come from ricers and magazines, I've known plenty of people who've had different experiences. The four Hondas that have been in my family, 2 mine, one my mom's, and one my stepsister's have been nothing special, and the only cars that have been worse were her '99 Mustang GT and no unexpectedly the '86 Jeep Cherokee.
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post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-03-2005, 08:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 1fst4dr
And my GP's interior has no issues, no squeaks or rattles, and has been taken apart a few times for gauges, stereo and a/f controller. My '99 Honda Accord V6 coupe on the other hand had gaps, squeeked after 4 months of ownership and scratched every time you looked at it wrong. Let's not even get started on mechanical issues.

Any car can have issues, squeeks, rattles, etc, generalizations about one being better than another on average are pointless and moot. Most of the talk about vastly superior import quality/durability come from ricers and magazines, I've known plenty of people who've had different experiences. The four Hondas that have been in my family, 2 mine, one my mom's, and one my stepsister's have been nothing special, and the only cars that have been worse were her '99 Mustang GT and no unexpectedly the '86 Jeep Cherokee.
The summation of all the user experiences, as depicted by MSN Autos, between the 1998 Grand Prix and the 1999 Accord tells a slightly different story:

MSN Autos - 98 Grand Prix Average of User Reviews

Overall - 8.5
Interior - 8.5
Quality - 7.8

MSN Autos - 99 Accord Average of User Reviews

Overall - 8.9
Interior - 8.8
Quality - 8.9

Assuming a margin for error that's undoubtedly equal regardless of the make/model, this would make the Accord slightly better in terms of user experience... the same kinds of things you, me, and Stock04Intrepid were talking about... than the Grand Prix for the years compared.

Comparing equal model years (98 to 98), switch the Interior and Quality numbers around for the Accord.
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post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-03-2005, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00ChryslerIntrepid
The summation of all the user experiences, as depicted by MSN Autos, between the 1998 Grand Prix and the 1999 Accord tells a slightly different story:

MSN Autos - 98 Grand Prix Average of User Reviews

Overall - 8.5
Interior - 8.5
Quality - 7.8

MSN Autos - 99 Accord Average of User Reviews

Overall - 8.9
Interior - 8.8
Quality - 8.9

Assuming a margin for error that's undoubtedly equal regardless of the make/model, this would make the Accord slightly better in terms of user experience... the same kinds of things you, me, and Stock04Intrepid were talking about... than the Grand Prix for the years compared.

Comparing equal model years (98 to 98), switch the Interior and Quality numbers around for the Accord.
Which proves what? How do you know what the margin of error is? It could be that people who buy Grand Prixs like to complain slightly more.

What you should be looking for is some kind of stat about problems per 100 vehicles. That would be more objective.
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post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-03-2005, 09:17 AM
 
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Originally Posted by alderran
Which proves what? How do you know what the margin of error is? It could be that people who buy Grand Prixs like to complain slightly more.
It could also be that Accord owners like to complain slightly more.

The margin for error in User Experiences is probably the same regardless of the make or model because there's always a jerk or fifty who selects 1 for every category because he hates Pontiac or hates Honda or hates whatever make you're talking about. There's also an equal likelihood of running into people who don't maintain their vehicles or who simply have bad dealership experiences.

Quote:
What you should be looking for is some kind of stat about problems per 100 vehicles. That would be more objective.
Fine. Find me those numbers for the vehicles in question and we'll talk.
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post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-03-2005, 01:26 PM
 
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You also need to take into account the natural biases that people have towards domestics these days, and that most people still believe that the cars of the 80's are still the benchmark.

I would expect Honda products to last longer and be more reliable, but that hasn't been my experience. Why would I expect them to be more reliable? Simple, a relatively bland and poor performer should have less issues than any other car. When it comes to reliability, the drivetrains should be good for some time, Honda doesn't make cars with performance in mind, sans hp/liter which is completely pointless and useless. Even still, I've been on Accord V6 forums for 5 years, and they have just as many issues as the dorks on the GP forums, not including obviously the people who modify their cars. As for the interior differences, again, my experiences have been different, but my GP interior still looks like new minus the usual slight leather wear, and much better than my mom's pilot and stepsister's Civic, and that's on a car that's 7 years old. I'm not exactly kind to the car either.

I remember a problems per xx amount of vehicle survey that came out a while back, and it had Toyota/Lexus (another relatively bland nonperformer, then Honda/Acura, and much to some people's chagrin, GM was 3rd, above Nissan, BMW etc. I've always thought BMW interiors were kinda crappy, materials were nothing special, etc, but a lot of people will rate it high simply because it's a BMW and people have the perception of Ueber Quality and build. Having had a 528, 2 M3's and 330xi also in the family, they're no better then the average import or domestic, IMO anyways. Ever seen the interior on an Acura TL? It's light years ahead of the bimmer's.

Perception thanks to the past, magazine writeups (C&D is known to be very biased), and people who assume without looking for themselves and excellent marketing is what gives Honda the reputation it has today. People can talk about seeing lots of '80's domestic shitboxes, but look the other way when they see a '80's import shitbox.
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