Harmonic Balancer Re-Install -- BEST METHOD?? - DodgeIntrepid.Net Forums - Dodge Intrepid, Concorde, 300m and Eagle Vision chat
 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 7 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-09-2011, 12:09 PM Thread Starter
Intrepid Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Long Beach
Posts: 54
Feedback: 0 / 0%
 
Harmonic Balancer Re-Install -- BEST METHOD??

Hi Guys.

What is the BEST (and by best I mean safest for my car) way that I can reinstall the Harmonic Balancer and get it into its proper seating after rotating the crank to TDC? Ive heard that you could use a hammer to get the Harmonic Balancer back into its proper place, but I also heard that this could cause some issue. Whatever you guys think just let me know. Thanks.

Symphonic
symphonic81 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-09-2011, 12:28 PM
Intrepid Pro
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Virginia, U.S.
Posts: 15,838
Feedback: 4 / 83%
                     
I don't have experience with 1st gen., but the same advice probably still applies: Buy a bolt 20mm or so longer than the factory bolt and use that to pull it on enough to swap out with the factory bolt and finish it. Hammering against a wood block on the pulley to get on enough to pull it the rest of the way with the factory bolt could also work. Just get the pulley on by hand and make sure the key slot engages the key before doing either method.

Finish by torqueing the bolt to the spec. given in the FSM. You'll have to figure some way to lock the crank from rotating against the torque you're applying, but if you already got it off, you probably already have a way to do that.


'98 LXi - Later Concorde gages (black w/ chrome rings)/'99 LX - LHS gages (white) - HIR bulbs

Last edited by peva; 07-09-2011 at 12:30 PM.
peva is offline  
post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-09-2011, 01:20 PM Thread Starter
Intrepid Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Long Beach
Posts: 54
Feedback: 0 / 0%
 
hmmm...

Wow. Why didn't I think of that? I guess its because . Thanks PEVA for that long bolt suggestion. I think that will work, but you brought up something that I didnt think about. So now I have a few more questions:

QUESTION 1:

I dont have ANY IDEA of how I would be able to get the bolts to be torqued properly without throwing off the timing of the crank (definitely need to keep that in TDC). Can ANYONE offer me any suggestions as to how I could accomplish this?

AND....
QUESTION 2:
What is exactly meant by: "make sure the key slot engages the key". What is the Key slot and what is the Key that is being referred to here? (to me it sounds like something behind the crankshaft that keeps things in order....?)

I should mention that I am just taking off the harmonic balancer and rotating the crankshaft to get it to TDC (I am not loosening or removing the crankshaft AT ALL (at least I dont think I have to :-/)

--Symphonic
symphonic81 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-09-2011, 02:16 PM
Intrepid Pro
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Virginia, U.S.
Posts: 15,838
Feedback: 4 / 83%
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by symphonic81 View Post
Wow. Why didn't I think of that? I guess its because . Thanks PEVA for that long bolt suggestion. I think that will work, but you brought up something that I didnt think about. So now I have a few more questions:
You're welcome. The bolt will probably be 12mm-1.75mm pitch like the 2nd gen. 3.2/3.5 engines have.

Quote:
QUESTION 1:

I dont have ANY IDEA of how I would be able to get the bolts to be torqued properly without throwing off the timing of the crank (definitely need to keep that in TDC). Can ANYONE offer me any suggestions as to how I could accomplish this?
If you can find a crank stopper, that would allow you to keep the crank from turning. It's the round disk (donut) in this damper puller kit - Advance and Autozone may have the type of puller kit that has that in it to loan you:



I actually bought that exact kit on ebay when I had to do some work on one of my engines.

You wouldn't be able to keep the crank at an *exact* position with that, but you could keep it close, but once the crank bolt is torqued, you can rotate the crank freely back to an exact position.

I guess I'm curious as to what you are trying to accomplish.

Quote:
AND....
QUESTION 2:
What is exactly meant by: "make sure the key slot engages the key". What is the Key slot and what is the Key that is being referred to here? (to me it sounds like something behind the crankshaft that keeps things in order....?)
A woodruff key is commonly used to lock the rotational position of damper pulleys on crankshafts. Look at the ID of the pulley - you will see a slot - it mates with the key in the crankshaft.

Quote:
I should mention that I am just taking off the harmonic balancer and rotating the crankshaft to get it to TDC (I am not loosening or removing the crankshaft AT ALL (at least I dont think I have to :-/)

--Symphonic
Again, I don't know what it is you're doing, but you do realize that you don't need to remove the pulley if all you need to do is get the crank to TDC?


'98 LXi - Later Concorde gages (black w/ chrome rings)/'99 LX - LHS gages (white) - HIR bulbs

Last edited by peva; 07-10-2011 at 12:23 PM. Reason: To correct information on the crank bolt size.
peva is offline  
post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-09-2011, 04:07 PM Thread Starter
Intrepid Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Long Beach
Posts: 54
Feedback: 0 / 0%
 
OOhHHHH ok I think I see what the issue is here....

Thanks again PEVA,

I will definitely look for a harmonic balancer puller kit that has that donut in it, to keep the crank in position.

BUT

Let me explain myself better so you can understand what it is Im trying to do.

I had to replace my water pump because my car was overheating (at least I hope that was the culprit), so I unloosed the tensioner pulley from the adjusting bolts, and took the timing belt off the grooves of the camshaft pulleys. I then replaced the water pump (noticed the old water pump had a few antifreeze tears weeping from its weep holes)...

BUT THIS IS WHERE I THINK I MESSED UP THE TIMING...


After bolting in the water pump, I saw that the marks on the camshaft sprockets were not sitting neatly between the 2 dot index marks of the housing, so (with very little knowledge of how to properly time everything), I started to turn the camshaft sprockets every which way to try to get their markings to fit in between the 2 index marks. In doing this, it didnt dawn on me that (DUHH) the camshafts DO turn with normal car operation, so just becuase the alignment marks on the camshafts are not sitting neatly between the 2 dot index marks of the housing when you open the housing up, that doesnt mean the timing is off!! (I know... I shouldnt have done this without knowing exactly what I was doing). But at the time I didnt know this, thats why I just started turning the camshaft sprockets left and right, because at the time I thought I could get their alignment marks to smoothly line up to the index marks that way (smh what was I thinking!). KEEP IN MIND that during this whole process, I did NOT remove the Crankshaft Pulley ( I didnt even touch it), and with that, I did not (I couldnt of course) rotate the crank to TDC. And of course the camshafts DID NOT smoothly line up: The camshaft sprockets would just JUMP pass the area they needed to rotate to to get the alignment mark in between those 2 index marks.

(WOULD TURNING THE CAMSHAFTS LIKE THIS COMPLETELY THROW OFF THE TIMING?
Remember Im new to all this!

So in a nutshell, I was turning the Camshafts with the timing belt off of them, but I didnt bother to do ANYTHING with the Crankshaft (I did not EVEN take off the Harmonic Balancer) -- and the Crank was definitely not in TDC!

When I realized I couldnt turn the camshafts in the place for the alignment marks to line up between the two index marks, I just gave up, figuring they aren't staying for a good reason, so I put the Timing belt back on as tight as I could, put a compressed tensioner back on tight as I could (the belt was tight), plugged the negative battery cable back in, and tried to start the car.

AND when I turned the car key, all I heard was: reh eh eh eh eh boom! (not a loud boom, but a boom nevertheless). So it would turn over, the Timing belt was turning, but the car just wouldnt start!

Sooooo...

WHAT I WISH TO DO IS:

FIGURE OUT IF MY TIMING IS OFF NOW (now that my car wont start), BUT THIS TIME AROUND, BY STARTING WITH THE ROTATION OF THE CRANKSHAFT TO TDC(as Im sure I should have done initially).

AND FIGURE OUT WHY THE CAR ISNT STARTING NOW!!

NOW Im HOPING there was no damage made to the Woodruff Key or Key slot that you were referring to. (I think maybe they Key is ok because I didnt actually unbolt or pull off the Harmonic Balance in the first place.
The car was starting fine before I started turning the Camshafts, So Im assuming the timing was fine before I starting turning the camshafts like an idiot. But now that the car isnt starting, Im pretty sure I threw the timing way off. I just REALLY hope I don't need to bring in a mechanic that will need special lights and tools to work on the electrical apsect of the timing. PLEASE CHASTISE OR CORRECT ME IF YOU GUYS WILL. I HAVE A FEELING I SCREWED UP ROYALLY. BUT HELP ME TOO!

--Symphonic

Last edited by symphonic81; 07-09-2011 at 04:09 PM. Reason: typo
symphonic81 is offline  
post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-09-2011, 06:25 PM
Intrepid Pro
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Virginia, U.S.
Posts: 15,838
Feedback: 4 / 83%
                     
You may be *very* lucky, or you may have done some real damage.

Our engines are interference, which means that if the timing belt is off and the cams or crank are indepentely rotated, or the timing belt is installed with the incorrect timing and the crank is rotated, one or more pistons and their valves will hit each other if the piston is near or at TDC at the same time a valve is fully open - and the valve will be bent (damaged, has to be replaced). That may be what the "boom" was when you spun it with the starter.

To find out where you are (i.e., if you bent one or more valves), someone will have to properly time it (the crank and cams have to be moved in a certain sequence to avoid possible additional piston/valve collisions), and do compression checks on each cylinder. If there is no compression in any cylinder, the head will have to be removed for that cylinder and the valve(s) replaced.

If you lucked out and there is good compression in all 6, then you lucked out big time, and can put it back together and keep on trucking.

Don't take offense at this, but you've heard the expression the "he knows just enough to be dangerous"...?

Good luck with this.


'98 LXi - Later Concorde gages (black w/ chrome rings)/'99 LX - LHS gages (white) - HIR bulbs
peva is offline  
post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-09-2011, 06:51 PM
get off my lawn

 
DrDodge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Smyrna , Tn
Posts: 15,480
Feedback: 6 / 100%
                     
its a 96 3.5 peva, , it wont crash anything,,
DrDodge is offline  
post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-10-2011, 10:51 AM Thread Starter
Intrepid Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Long Beach
Posts: 54
Feedback: 0 / 0%
 
so what did I do?

To Dr. Dodge (or to any other 3.5 L - informed soul here),

Based on the information I posted in my last post here, what do you think happened? can turning the camshaft sprockets like I did throw the timing off? with this job that Ive done what would factor in that would cause the car not to start? Any help with this matter would be appreciated. Thanks.

--Symphonic
symphonic81 is offline  
post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-10-2011, 11:20 AM
Intrepid Pro
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Virginia, U.S.
Posts: 15,838
Feedback: 4 / 83%
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDodge View Post
its a 96 3.5 peva, , it wont crash anything,,
I forgot that. Hah! I guess *I'm* the dangerous one (between posts, I forgot we were talking 1st gen.). Sorry.

Certainly the timing is off, but so what - easily remedied. Follow the directions in your other thread.

Last edited by peva; 07-10-2011 at 11:27 AM.
peva is offline  
post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 07-10-2011, 03:27 PM
get off my lawn

 
DrDodge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Smyrna , Tn
Posts: 15,480
Feedback: 6 / 100%
                     
like Bill said,, its all on the other thread,, its out of time,, did you do damage? I doubt it, , I think your just freaked out, and not sure what direction to go,, relax,,
DrDodge is offline  
post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-22-2018, 07:25 PM
Intrepid Newbie
 
deputycleric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: US Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 40
Feedback: 0 / 0%
 
Very helpful thread, as I find that no one in town, not auto parts stores, not tool shops, sells nor rents a harmonic-balancer installer that is threaded for a 2001 3.2 Intrepid engine.

The longer bolt - I am also having trouble finding one which is as hard as the car's own pulley bolt. I am a little nervous about trying this with a bolt that is too soft. Any concern?
deputycleric is offline  
post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-22-2018, 08:30 PM
Intrepid Pro
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Virginia, U.S.
Posts: 15,838
Feedback: 4 / 83%
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by deputycleric View Post
Very helpful thread, as I find that no one in town, not auto parts stores, not tool shops, sells nor rents a harmonic-balancer installer that is threaded for a 2001 3.2 Intrepid engine.

The longer bolt - I am also having trouble finding one which is as hard as the car's own pulley bolt. I am a little nervous about trying this with a bolt that is too soft. Any concern?
The more common metric bolts are Class 8.8, which is equivalent to Grade 5 in ďinchĒ bolts. Thatís a decent medium hardness. I donít think the crank metal is as hard as the bolts. Also keep in mind that you will only need to use that bolt to pull the pulley onto the crank enough to swap to and engage 5 or so threads of the factory bolt. The pulley-to-crank fit is tapered, so it isnít going to be pulling very hard at all while using the substitute bolt. Itís only towards the end and at the hard-stopped final torque (with the factory bolt) that the factory bolt strength is needed (Class 10.9?).
deputycleric likes this.


'98 LXi - Later Concorde gages (black w/ chrome rings)/'99 LX - LHS gages (white) - HIR bulbs
peva is offline  
post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-22-2018, 11:31 PM
Intrepid Newbie
 
deputycleric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: US Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 40
Feedback: 0 / 0%
 
Well, crud and more crud.

I did the bolt trick but at the end managed to pretty much strip the crankshaft bolt hole threads apparently. I can get maybe 20 ft-lb before it feels like it is going to slip. The bolt still follows the threads on the way out but once I loosen it with the wrench it is finger-loose all the way out which seems worrisome. Only 2 or 3 visible metal shavings, very small, almost grains.

At least the crankshaft pulley seems to be exactly where it needs to be, relative to the power steering pulley.

Drill and tap time?

[Edit]

From what I understand on further reading, while there are many schools of thought concerning harmonic balancers and the attachment thereof, everyone agrees that having one come off at speed will ruin your whole day.

One school of thought says, "if the threads are somewhat salvageable, run a thread chaser through, then slather the bolt with Loctite Red, and do not try to tighten to torque since the bolt is just there to keep the pulley from coming off anyway." While initially attractive from a "quick fix" viewpoint, this sounds pretty shaky, since a) not sure if 20 ft-lb and Loctite Red are enough to hold the bolt in "permanently" under operating conditions and the threads just decide to give up the ghost, and b) even though the pulley appears 100% aligned with the power-steering pulley I would have to wonder if, not having been put on with an official installer tool, it is going to slip on the crankshaft under load. And in that case I would wonder about a crank pin kit, which I don't seem to find for these cars.

Other schools of thought mention Helicoil but there is disagreement about how much torque you can put onto it and you are back with "well it just holds the pulley on anyway" situation above.

The only really firm solution that preserves torque strength seems to be drill and tap.

Is the EZ loctite solution a realistic option in this case? If that's actually a real deal (as some who "did it and never had any problems" assert), it would save drill-and-tap for a time when I have the motor out of the car at some future date for a rebuild.

"Never had any problems until I had a problem"

Last edited by deputycleric; 02-23-2018 at 02:26 AM.
deputycleric is offline  
post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-23-2018, 02:16 AM
Intrepid Pro
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Virginia, U.S.
Posts: 15,838
Feedback: 4 / 83%
                     
That is with the factory bolt? At what point in the process do you think it stripped? Was the bolt noticeably hard to turn at any point? What value did you limit your torque to?

If it truly is stripped, I wonder if the thread depth has additional (unstripped) length to where you can permanently use a longer bolt (to grab enough undamaged engagement length of the remaining thread).

Last edited by peva; 02-23-2018 at 02:18 AM.
peva is offline  
post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 02-23-2018, 07:05 AM
Intrepid Newbie
 
deputycleric's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: US Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 40
Feedback: 0 / 0%
 
This is the original bolt that was on the car. Not sure if factory or not. However, it was the longer starter bolt that originally suddenly "gave" and I believe I may have allowed it to bottom out.

At the same time though, I found that when I put the factory bolt in, I was able to keep tightening it and the pulley kept moving inward, which is how I got to the point of the pulleys being aligned. But as I mentioned, at this stage around 20 ft-lb there is the very unpleasant feel of something about to "give" and so I have not tried to go further.

So I am not sure if I have the pulley on as far as it should go, and partly stripped threads, or else the pulley is not on tight enough yet and that is why the bolt keeps turning.

I did notice earlier that without the pulley on, the bolt would go in all the way to the shank, and on measuring I found that the hole is about 1/4" deeper than the bolt. Therefore there is no "automatic stop" coming into play with the factory (or at least oriiginal) bolt.

Last edited by deputycleric; 02-23-2018 at 10:06 AM.
deputycleric is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the DodgeIntrepid.Net Forums - Dodge Intrepid, Concorde, 300m and Eagle Vision chat forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

Member names may only be composed of alpha-numeric characters. (A-Z and 0-9)

!!ATTENTION ADVERTISERS!! If you intend on advertising anything on this forum, whatsoever, you are required to first contact us here . Additionaly, we do NOT allow BUSINESS NAMES unless you are an Authorized Vendor. If you own a business, and want to do sales on this site via posting or private message, you will need to follow the rules. Shops, Stores, Distributors, Group Buys without being authorized will see your account terminated.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in













Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome