question about setting timing after upper engine rebuild - DodgeIntrepid.Net Forums - Dodge Intrepid, Concorde, 300m and Eagle Vision chat
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-11-2018, 10:10 PM Thread Starter
Intrepid Fan
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Omaha
Posts: 160
Feedback: 0 / 0%
 
question about setting timing after upper engine rebuild

Hi everyone. I have a 2000 300m that has a failed motor due to previous owner not ever changing oil LOL.

Anyhow... I bought the car and found a good used engine at a local automotive yard. this motor has 87K on it.
Currently have the motor on an engine stand and I am tearing it down. Every seal on the motor will be replaced including front and rear seals. the other night I got it down to the heads. This motor is pretty easy to work on and take apart when its OUT of the car haha.

Question... timing...
I am aware of how to line up the timing marks on the crank and cam pulleys. Since I will be removing the heads and taking them to get checked and machined, I need to remove the cam pulleys. Now...If I get my hands on that special tool (otc 7999), does that lock the cams in TDC? IE:...the tool will not fit or bolt on unless the cams are in the TDC position?
I just want to make sure I am aware and know how to reinstall the cam pulleys properly

Also...are there any components or sensors that I should just go ahead and replace while I got the engine torn down? (excluding timing belt and water pump kit)

Thanks for the input everyone
UmmScott is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-12-2018, 05:34 PM
Intrepid Pro
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Virginia, U.S.
Posts: 16,056
Feedback: 4 / 83%
                     
(1) Read the FSM for how to correctly use the cam lock tool.

(2) Be careful on the rear main seal plate (not talking about the camshaft seal now - talking about the *crankshaft* rear seal plate). I believe it takes a special gasket that they don’t make any more (or you have to buy the plate with the pre-formed gasket attached - and they don’t make it any more). There may be something you can do with RTV to take the place of that seal. I never had to get into that area myself, so I don’t know all the who-shot-John on it, but I remember reading a few threads on how it was a dilemma for people who removed that rear plate and then couldn’t find a replacement plate and gasket.

Hopefully someone who knows the whole story on it will come along and post the important info. Otherwise, you’re probably better off leaving that rear plate and gasket undisturbed. I assume you can replace the rear crankshaft seal without removing the plate, but I don’t know that for sure.

(3) Come to think of it, there is information that you need to know about the rear *cam* plates when you put them back on. That plates often starts seeping oil, so it’s a good idea to replace their o-rings. The advice is to order *Viton* o-rings off of eBay. I haven’t check in a while, but they used to sell the right size Viton o-ring for 10 bucks or so (including shipping) for a bag of ten. Viton should hold it forever, though wouldn’t hurt to put a light layer of RTV on them. Also - the hole for the lower bolt on one of the rear cam covers (I forget which side) is a thru hole (into the head) - so it is imperative to RTV the threads of that bolt when re-installing.

If you order the rear cam cover seal from Chrysler now, they send you flat cardboard gaskets - stupid. Groove and o-ring seal is perfect - if you use a Viton o-ring.

Bonus is that the exact same size o-ring fits the front cover of the MTV actuator, which is also a very common source of oil seepage (all over the front of the engine). Oh - the correct o-ring size is 136. Search “viton o-ring 136” on eBay.

(4) Be sure to follow the FSM bolt torqueing sequence exactly on the structural collar (connects to rear of oil pan and transmission). Not following the sequence can cause the oil pan to crack due to stresses.


'98 LXi - Later Concorde gages (black w/ chrome rings)/'99 LX - LHS gages (white) - HIR bulbs

Last edited by peva; 10-12-2018 at 06:04 PM.
peva is offline  
post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-12-2018, 10:11 PM
Intrepid Modder
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 278
Feedback: 0 / 0%
   
I don't think the cam tools guarantee TDC. In order to guarantee that, you need to use a dial gauge on cylinder 1 to check TDC. You will be rotating the crank to set that while the cams are locked and their timing marks aligned with the marks on the block. Once you set TDC at the crank, you tighten the cam bolts.
codyj is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-12-2018, 10:23 PM Thread Starter
Intrepid Fan
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Omaha
Posts: 160
Feedback: 0 / 0%
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by codyj View Post
I don't think the cam tools guarantee TDC. In order to guarantee that, you need to use a dial gauge on cylinder 1 to check TDC. You will be rotating the crank to set that while the cams are locked and their timing marks aligned with the marks on the block. Once you set TDC at the crank, you tighten the cam bolts.
I dont understand why u need a dial gauge. Simply look? The piston is either up or down right? So look thru the spark plug hole, use a ong screwdriver and note the top of travel?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
UmmScott is offline  
post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-12-2018, 11:26 PM
Intrepid Modder
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 278
Feedback: 0 / 0%
   
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmmScott View Post
I dont understand why u need a dial gauge. Simply look? The piston is either up or down right? So look thru the spark plug hole, use a ong screwdriver and note the top of travel?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
It needs to be precise. There is a decent amount of crank travel while the piston appears at the top, but it's actually moving slightly. Dial gauge will amplify that so you can see it.

Otherwise your timing could be off a little and there will be no way to fix it unless you adjust the cams again. If you're going through all the trouble, may as well do it right. Not saying the engine won't run but... it's just more risk you could eliminate.
codyj is offline  
post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-13-2018, 08:58 AM Thread Starter
Intrepid Fan
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Omaha
Posts: 160
Feedback: 0 / 0%
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by codyj View Post
It needs to be precise. There is a decent amount of crank travel while the piston appears at the top, but it's actually moving slightly. Dial gauge will amplify that so you can see it.

Otherwise your timing could be off a little and there will be no way to fix it unless you adjust the cams again. If you're going through all the trouble, may as well do it right. Not saying the engine won't run but... it's just more risk you could eliminate.
Ok so the TDC of #1 cylinder corresponds to the crankshaft timing mark right?

So the piston should be at TDC with that mark lined up.

Or...are we saying that somehow if i have the cam pulleys removed that this is no longer accurate?
Idk how that would be possible

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
UmmScott is offline  
post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-13-2018, 09:17 AM
Intrepid Modder
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 278
Feedback: 0 / 0%
   
That mark is very crude and only useful for once the cams are timed to the crankshaft to quickly check timing. A dial gauge takes all the guess work out of it and it is easier than using a screwdriver. Once you loosen those cam sprockets, the timing is ruined. The marks are not accurate enough for setting the timing, but accurate enough for aligning everything once they are in time.
codyj is offline  
post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-13-2018, 09:46 AM Thread Starter
Intrepid Fan
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Omaha
Posts: 160
Feedback: 0 / 0%
 
Ok that makes sense then.

Im just trying to figure out, "what changed" causing me to need that tool.
Where can i get it if i need it .?
Quote:
Originally Posted by codyj View Post
That mark is very crude and only useful for once the cams are timed to the crankshaft to quickly check timing. A dial gauge takes all the guess work out of it and it is easier than using a screwdriver. Once you loosen those cam sprockets, the timing is ruined. The marks are not accurate enough for setting the timing, but accurate enough for aligning everything once they are in time.
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
UmmScott is offline  
post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-13-2018, 10:03 AM
Intrepid Modder
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 278
Feedback: 0 / 0%
   
You said you're removing the heads to send to a machine shop so I assume you're removing the rocker arms and cams as well. If not, the machine shop will do that and they will check the valves.

I'd see if a local parts store would loan you one, you'd just pay a deposit and bring it back when you're done for a refund. Otherwise, Amazon has some decent ones for good prices.
codyj is offline  
post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-13-2018, 10:38 AM Thread Starter
Intrepid Fan
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Omaha
Posts: 160
Feedback: 0 / 0%
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by codyj View Post
You said you're removing the heads to send to a machine shop so I assume you're removing the rocker arms and cams as well. If not, the machine shop will do that and they will check the valves.

I'd see if a local parts store would loan you one, you'd just pay a deposit and bring it back when you're done for a refund. Otherwise, Amazon has some decent ones for good prices.
I have the engine on a stand and torn down partially. The timing belt is off but the cam gears/heads i have not touched yet.

My plan is to take the heads off leaving the cams and rockers in place and take to a machine shop. Have them mill the head, pressure test, and check the valve train.

I am just trying to get all the timing info correct so when i go to put it all back together, it all goes correctly.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
UmmScott is offline  
post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-13-2018, 08:16 PM
I hit shit with sticks!


 
Daytrepper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Zebulon, NC
Posts: 36,997
Feedback: 21 / 100%
                     
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by UmmScott View Post
I dont understand why u need a dial gauge. Simply look? The piston is either up or down right? So look thru the spark plug hole, use a ong screwdriver and note the top of travel?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Yes, anytime you are removing the gears; its a good idea to find true TDC with a dial indicator; along with the cam lock tools; as there is some play in the gear hubs that can mess up the timing marks once the gears are removed; if not put back exactly.

If all is well and you set it up with your dial indicator and cam tools; your timing marks should be perfect, and your cam gears will be "dialed in" correctly.

It can be done without; engine will run; but it is always good to be sure if you are going that far. It will set the engine exactly where it needs to be and allow you to have the most accurate timing possible.


1998 Dodge Intrepid
Ram Logistics Director; Danbo Truck & Diesel, Inc.
Chairman; Let Your 2.7 Live Foundation
President, Danbo Drumming Ventures, GmbH;
Daytrepper is offline  
post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 10-18-2018, 09:56 AM
Intrepid Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 27
Feedback: 0 / 0%
 
I understand replacing all the seals. Why take the heads off and surface machine? I know the just to be sure mentality and there is an unknown of the engines internal health. Nothing really wrong with that. If the car was wrecked, I would assume that the engine was running at the time it happened and is in o.k. shape.Particularly with only 87k on it. My tendency is to be as least invasive as possible on an engine.

Having said that, I have had the heads milled on my 3.5L because of an overheating problem.
The machine shop will likely remove the camshafts. Those cam bolts should not be reused. They are difficult to find and if I recall , are about $18.00 a piece.
The FSM says you can reuse head bolts (not recommended) but, must be checked for stretch.
They are also torque to yield bolts. Torque to spec. and then turn 90 degrees further.

Proper replacement gaskets were difficult for me to find. I ordered a specific gasket set for my engine. The two water passage o-rings seemed way to large in cross section. None of the intake gaskets were correct size.

Camshaft sprockets have some rotational play that is intentionally machined into them. This is so you can align the sprockets with a tooth on the belt. Camshaft locked. Just something to be aware of.
I purchased my lockplates from Amazon.
cruzcar is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the DodgeIntrepid.Net Forums - Dodge Intrepid, Concorde, 300m and Eagle Vision chat forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

Member names may only be composed of alpha-numeric characters. (A-Z and 0-9)

!!ATTENTION ADVERTISERS!! If you intend on advertising anything on this forum, whatsoever, you are required to first contact us here . Additionaly, we do NOT allow BUSINESS NAMES unless you are an Authorized Vendor. If you own a business, and want to do sales on this site via posting or private message, you will need to follow the rules. Shops, Stores, Distributors, Group Buys without being authorized will see your account terminated.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Linear Mode
Rate This Thread:



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome