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question about block where water pump attaches

I have my 99 concord down to where I'm ready to put in new water pump but I seem to have grooves 2mm deep and 5.5 mm going from pump area to weep holes that a "flat" gasket won't fill. 2 other pictures i found on internet show the block to flat and mine seems inset (machined in) If leave those channels empty I think it will leak faster than the bad pump I had?? I can send a picture if needed
 

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oil cooler

This is the first time I have heard of an oil cooler. Would you please tell where it is Sir. I am dumb to the newer cars. Thank you again.
 

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I hit **** with sticks!
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Discussion Starter #65
This is the first time I have heard of an oil cooler. Would you please tell where it is Sir. I am dumb to the newer cars. Thank you again.
If you have it, as they phased out starting in 2001; it will be in the right radiator tank and will have two hard metal lines that connect to the radiator there.
 

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I could have sworn that no LH 2.7s came with oil coolers. Am I wrong? (I know that my ‘99 didn’t.)

EDIT: Perhaps the rare Intrepid ESs that came with 2.7 did?
 

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Discussion Starter #68 (Edited)
I could have sworn that no LH 2.7s came with oil coolers. Am I wrong? (I know that my ‘99 didn’t.)

EDIT: Perhaps the rare Intrepid ESs that came with 2.7 did?
My 98 had one. Seen a few others. All 3.x had it until 2001. Not common on a 2.7 though.
 

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Interesting. I just looked in the ‘99 parts pdf. It shows 2 part numbers for 2.7 oil pan - depending on with or without autostick! Crazy. It does show supply and return oil cooler lines - I wouldn’t have been surprised if they designed for the possibility but never made them with it. Strangely, the ‘98 parts pdf doesn’t show but one 2.7 oil pan, and no 2.7 oil cooler lines. Your ‘98 obviously had it, which is proof of the pudding. Wouldn’t be the first time documentation didn’t jive with reality.
 

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The only 2.7 car I ever actually bought with a running engine. Had to do the water pump and chain guides, it also blew a head gasket but water to oil, used sealer and fine for 6 months before plug in would come out and I did it again, that is why I am very familiar with how one befores during overheat.
 

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I would like to offer a few observations to the 2.7 water pump change if you gonna' do it yourself and your engine is mounted traditionally as in my 01' Intrepid. First of all I've always wanted to be able to tell folks that a LOT of problems you think are one thing are all related to the water pump issue. I wish I could have all the cheap Intrepid's out there for sale that are reported as having a "blown" head gasket. The water pump in this engine is not mounted on the front of the block where you can see coolant leak if the seals go bad. The water pump is mounted behind the timing cover and is driven by the timing chain. If you look at any of the several excellent pics posted with the timing cover off you can see that the oil pan extends forward enough so that anything leaking from the water pump can go straight down into the opening of the pan. When the thing starts to overheat and you pull over to look at the oil the first thing you're gonna' say is "damn! head gasket" when the reality is it could just be coolant that got in the oil. Now, and this is the REAL question. If your 2.7 was overheating did you pull over soon enough? Or did you cook your aluminum engine? I got really, really lucky. My wife knew to stop as soon as she suspected overheating and after I got her and the car home and did some research. That's when I found out, despite my thinking at first it was a head gasket, what most of the people here did. In my case after opening it up I discovered that the water pump sprocket was made of a phenolic material (resins) and had cracked evenly all around the circumference of the gears just below the teeth. Who'd a thunk? I got super lucky because the water pump gear teeth just spun but the chain didn't skip a tooth on the sprockets that counted. I need to say here that I'm an old guy who used to wench engines a lot in my younger years and even when I had the money to pay someone else I still did/do all the maintenance myself. Can anyone do this? If you can change a radiator and understand timing you can move up to this. All I can say is it doesn't need any special tools. Just a metric socket set and common stuff. You do need a three jaw gear puller. My Harbor Freight special worked fine. But you do need to have a place for the car to be for a few days. It can be done outside but not, like, in an apartment building or public parking lot. Been there, done that. You need patience! Walk away when you get frustrated. It's a scary job the first time. I was like whoever was setting up the first atomic bomb in Nevada. But it worked out fine. There are some excellent posts here on it but I'd just like to offer a few things I've learned from changing it. When you take the plenum off there are two hard EGR pipes that go into the back of it. They join together behind the engine to a common tube that can be disconnected with two bolts. You will need to remove most of the air filter plenum to get to them easily. If it is a transverse engine it may be much easier. Don't try to force the intake plenum off without removing those pipes. Something will give. The left valve cover (again drivers view) can have a big ol' wire bundle wrapped tight around the end of it above the flange that needs a careful but forceful nudge to get access to the back two fasteners and get it off. If you're changing the primary camshaft sprockets and there's any confusion as to whether it's a "SBEC" or "NGC" system I would just make sure the slots in the timing wheel attached to the left cam sprocket (from the drivers point of view) are the same as the one you replace it with. If you buying parts online some places say which is which some don't, but you can zoom in on the pictures to see the timing mark enough to see if the slots match yours. Like I said mine is an 01' but has the original system. The "improved" NGC system is supposed to be identified by a triangle stamped (or punched out) just above the timing hole on the sprocket. But my 01' Intrepid has the triangle but is the original system. The original timing wheel will have one slot closest to the timing mark/hole. The NGC will have three slots closest to it. If you could see both at the same time you see it clearly.
One last thing, if you get the cover off and you're sure the chain didn't skip, hand crank the crank so that the timing groove lines up with the arrow on the oil pump right behind it. It is not TDC, it is just the way they did it. That way you'll have a good starting point to line up the marked links w/the sprockets. IF YOU'RE NOT SURE if the chain skipped, I loosened the camshaft hold down bolts to raise the camshafts (letting the valve springs push them up) and make sure the lobes couldn't push a valve down into a piston when I turned it. That way you're safe. I've read where after you have everything lined up and the chain and tensioner installed that it can take like 70 revolutions to get them to line up again. It took me five or six revolutions to double check it.
I think the 2.7 is a good engine. I think it's way over-engineered especially for just 200 hp. It's a great challenge to do and if you just take your time it'll work out OK. I have mixed feelings about aftermarket parts that aren't OEM. I don't buy the all "parts made in China are junk" because I know most of everything is made in China and American companies didn't have a gun to their heads to move their manufacturing there. I also believe in the marketplace. If some website is selling, or some place is making weak or "cheap" parts they won't be in business long. I mean the chain tensioner is over $200 from Mopar but can be had for less than $30 elsewhere. And I'm absolutely sure most non-dealer mechanics get their parts online. In any case good luck. We like our intrepid and has been put thru the paces considering where we live (rural). There's also a bunch of them for sale cheap because they think it's a blown head gasket but after doing a water pump on a 2.7 you'll be able to know if you have a good chance to get a normally $1,800 car for $50 and fix it for $95, I did. Good Luck.
 

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As a new person here I should introduce myself. I'm an old, old school guy who got a 2001 Intrepid 2.7 when the water pump went on the original owner. He was going to trade it in but after the trade value went to "zip" w/the bad water pump he gave it to me. I researched it, changed the pump and have driven it for about 40K miles (it originally had about 90K). Three weeks ago when driving at approx. 60 mph it started making a progressively loud clicking sound. I pulled over within 20 seconds and turned it off. After opening the hood I started it again to hear it was coming from under the front of the left valve cover. My backround is aircraft maintenance as a retired A&P but 90% of my car experience is from maintaining my own vehicles since age 15. When I first opened her up for the water pump I treated it like I was dealing with the first atom bomb test. The chain and gears are intimidating and it seems the 2.7 is a way over engineered engine w/ the DOHC's. But when I got it back together and turned the key it purred and has been a very reliable and good car until now. OK today I'm putting it back together after replacing the chain, tensioner, gears and guides. BUT there wasn't anything obvious about any of the old parts. But what I'm thinking happened was somehow the tensioner lost oil pressure and the chain slack was beating the primary chain guide. I will follow up when I start it hopefully tomorrow. But what I wanted to offer is a few things I know are confusing. The tensioner doesn't act like the ones on the Coyles videos. I've got three of them, two brand new and all three act exactly the same. You can compress them with your hands and they all feel "gritty" on the last 3/4 inch or so of travel. I don't know what's inside to do that. They don't always lock and when they do they don't always release with a push on the "plunger" part. Sometimes I have to hold it against something solid and give it a smack with a hammer to get them to release. I have discovered that using a plastic syringe w/oil I can squeeze oil in the opening w/ the little ball check valve and prime it instead of using the "special" tool. If I try to compress the tensioner w/the oil in it I use a nail to open (and test) the check ball to release the pressure so it collapses. After putting it all together w/everything aligned it takes about five complete revolutions of the chain to line up the marks again. That's about 70-90 pulls with the ratchet on the crank because I can only get about 15 or so degrees of turn w/ every pull. When engines are designed they aren't looking for ease of repair. They're designed for and fastest and most consistent means to assemble them. That's why they have those three large torx plugs in the heads, for example, so you can get to the chain guide bolts. I also believe that all the after market parts are OEM. I'm of the belief that not only does Chrysler, Ford, GM and all the other manufactures have their suppliers make thousands more parts for the after market the same suppliers make and store thousands more for the same after market. Someone would have to sell a boatload of, say, tensioners to make up the cost of setting up the machining and processing to make them for the after market on their own. And I cannot tell one iota of difference between the three I have including the original one. They feel the same, the act the same and they all have that same "gritty" feeling on the last bit of travel of compression. All to say that if your doing your own work on the water pump it usually means you're on a budget. I feel just as confident paying $30 for a tensioner online as I would paying $240 for an "OEM" one. I think they're all the same and all come from the same place. Now I know some guys have a real issue with so called Chinese "junk". But heh' guys, "stuff" has been made in China, Mexico, and everywhere else for many, many decades now and it's just most people don't know it. I think the reason many car parts are/were made in Mexico was due to the cost of transport of heavy parts. But container ships have made it cost pennies today. I'm going out to finish putting it together. The plumbing and wiring has to be reinstalled carefully. I'll follow up on what I discover about the chain slack. Thanks and good luck to all.
 

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I'm one who strongly advises against going aftermarket on the 2.7 chain tensioner. I've seen way too many posts here in which someone used aftermarket tensioners and they failed soon after installed. I'm not one to say buy OEM for all parts for these cars. Examples: Go aftermarket or PCV valves and for toe adjuster sleeves - get the sleeves with the big hex, not the ones with the knurled OEM design. Also, only get the 2.7 coolant outlet housing and pipe - aftermarket sells an older design, and has poorer quality in general. Same for the coolant reservoir - aftermarket only lasts a few months; dealer part lasts several years. But for 2.7 water pumps and chain tensioners, only use OEM. The water pumps in aftermarket generally are of the older, inferior OEM design. The dealer sells only the later, beefed up design (greatly improved bearings and gasket).

I used to work for a second-tier OEM parts supplier. I can tell you for a fact that there are 2 sets of tolerance specs. on any given part. The stuff that goes to the factory assembly line are to the tighter specs. We made parts for Ford (Visteon) and GM (Delco), and sometimes we made a whole run of parts that were out of spec. Our sales department had a special phone number at Ford that they would call when we had out of spec. Ford parts. Those out-of-spec. parts would go to their aftermarket department for the dealer parts departments and for Ford-branded aftermarket.

The noise you heard when the tensioner collapsed was the chain tensioner arm slapping back and forth due to the valve spring pressure of the rockers against the cam lobes (cogging).

Suggestion: Break your posts into paragraphs. For some reason it makes reading them a lot easier. (y)
 

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Peva I will take your advice about OEM and my grammar. I have a tendency to drag things on and I don't indent the paragraphs as much as I should.
I believe there are two primary reasons why the 2.7 engine gets the rap it does. One; it was the base engine for Challengers and Chargers. It is an engine best suited for the "family" sedan than for a car with the rich "muscle car" history of Chargers and Challengers. There are probably hundreds of 2.7 equipped Dodge Challenger's, Charger's retired long before their time because of a beat to death 2.7. And the second reason, as you know well, is the water pump inside the timing cover. I believe 90% of engine issues began with a weeping water pump dripping coolant directly into the oil pan below it and the resultant diluted oil in a hot engine. That coupled with driving a car that's overheating and not being able to get it to a safe place to shut it down in time. Mine doesn't have that "remote" weep hole but from what I've read coolant still seems to get in the oil. The resultant "chocolate shake" looking oil, the classic symptom of a leaking head gasket, sadly begins the familiar chain of events of over-heating, tensioners not filling up, sludge, and all around distress from inadequate lubrication and cooling. Plus, sadly, too many "mechanics" who aren't aware of the issue.
But I have a question for you as I value your knowledge in this matter. When preparing to remove the left valve cover, from drivers point of view, there is a single green wire coming out of the ignition coil wire bundle that terminates to a small black (1/2 " x 3/4") electrical "thing" that is in turn mounted to one of the center valve cover studs. It disintegrated upon removing it but, fortunately, there is a identical one on the right valve cover and has a p/n embossed in it as 45301 w/additional numbers 250/0.47 and 081. I can't find any reference to it to save my life much less know what it is. Do you know it's purpose and maybe a number it converts to so I can find one?
I also want to thank you for the diagnosis. I agree but I don't know what caused the tensioner to lose pressure @60 mph. This engine was never cooked. The oil was changed regularly and there's no sludge issue. I may have to remove the oil pan to check the pick-up. And I hate oil pans, they never seem to go back on exactly like the way when they were first installed. Or I may have to do it all over again to change the oil pump if that's the culprit. I suppose anything's possible. It's been a great car considering I got it for free plus the original $95 for the water pump it needed. We're rural so the partial dirt roads haven't bothered it too much. Also going to the "auto parts" store is not a "just down the street" thing anymore. But I'm older and wrenching on cars isn't as fun as it used to be.
Again, Thank You for your input.
 

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The little black modules attached to the head are RFI suppressors aka capacitors.

See if this part number gets you anywhere. 04609133AA
 

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It did, Thank You Ronbo. Funny I was just thinking about it when I reached for my phone to ck' for a response. Like I said, I'm old school and capacitors are still part of my auto lexicon, as in points. In looking it up I also found links to a lot of other good and essential stuff. Like don't touch the wire or let it ground on something when energized. I'm not going to start it until I replace it.
To Peve, Ronbo and everyone else here Thanks Again.
 

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You're welcome.

There are a few mentions of the RFI capacitors in the FSM - for one, page 8I-5 in the '02 FSM.

No need to be paranoid about driving the car before you replace the capacitor. Worst-case, you (and nearby cars) may get some ignition noise in the radio without the capacitor. Probably won't be any radio noise, and it won't hurt anything anyway. The attachment of those capacitors is pretty flimsy.

On the paragraphs, just putting an additional carriage return between the paragraphs would eliminate any objections. IOW, hit the return key twice to start the next paragraph.
 

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Don't need no Steenkin" paragraph separation! heh
 

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Peva and/or Ronbo I got it back together, it started easily, made chain noise for about 15 seconds and faded away. I'm guessing that's when the oil pressure got to the tensioner. BUT I now have a pronounced "ticking" sound that I can't quite pin-point the origin but it's coming from the front of the engine. I'd love it to be external but it seems to be inside. Like I've said I'm old and old school and it sounds exactly like a lifter "tick".
Question; I can't find an image of the lubrication path for the 2.7. Best I can figure from what I've read is that the tensioner is the last thing to get oil. I had it all apart and the cams loosed but I didn't touch anything else in the valve train. I started thinkin' (not always a good thing) if the last component to get oil BEFORE the tensioner is a valve lash adjuster the failed, could it restrict oil to the tensioner? Good question huh'? But I have no idea and I have great respect for those who do. BTW I'll point out a few things I've not mentioned. It does not have a sludge issue. It has the new water pump. I changed the chain, guides, cam and crank sprockets along with the tensioner on this effort to fix the loud chain "slapping". None of them were really required it as the old parts appeared fine. There was no evidence of damage to the original guides. I filled it w/10-30 conventional oil to run it thru and will change to synthetic after it warms up. The car is now 19 years old, I got it for practically free, if you don't count replacing the water pump, and it's got about 145K miles. So I'm not expecting it to be the last car we have. But I'm fond of the dang thing. It's been a great vehicle and I can see why people like em'. But as far as the oiling sequence anyone have an idea? Ya' know for all I know I'll go out, start it and all
will be fine but I'm not counting on it.
 
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