DodgeIntrepid.Net Forums banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,642 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
well guys, ive been looking everywhere for info on 2nd gen engine swap into a 1st gen.
so, for future reference, i will post all info i can find about the swap in this thread.
please, if you have more info, post it. :)

what i have so far _---- ( collected from other threads)



What gives power on second gen engine is not only the different intake manifold that will give more torque with the long runner setup, the short runner setup will only use 1 throttle body. I think that the 1st gen intake (2 throttles bodies) gives more horspower to the car. The use of two throttle bodies gives a better throttle response.

I think that most of the horspower from the second gen. engine is from those points:

-The piston weight for the second gen is 438 grams for the A size. On the first gen engine, they weight 515 grams. Total weight lost: -77 grams
-The connecting rods for the second gen weight 647 grams. On the first gen they weight 626 grams. Total weight gain: 21 grams

So the total weight lost per piston/rod is 56 grams for each cylinders. Here you gain alot of hp from the weight lost in the engine.


-The second gen camshaft has the same exhaust valve lift that the first gen camshaft. (.2571 in.) It's another thing for the intake valve lift that is .3367 on the second gen. On the first gen cam it was .3209. (On the second gen camshaft, you have .016 in. more lift)

-The exhaust valves are the same on both engines. On the intake side, valves are different: On the second gen, valve size is 1.4319 in. on the first gen it's 1.3728 in. Valves are .059 in. bigger on the second gen engine and there are 2 intake valves per cylinders. :D

-On the second gen engine, you will find softer springs. That gives horsepower by the fact that valves are easier to open.

-Compression ratio is also different, on the second gen it's 10:1 and on the first gen engine it's 9.6:1 (obdII)

You can find an aluminium block on the second gen, it's lighter so your hp/weight ratio will be better.

Engine mounts:
-Driver side have the same bold pattern on the block on both generations. (Even on the 3.3)
-Passenger side is different on the second gen, only 1 bolt is not at the same place. So with a minor mod, you will be able to use the second gen mount.

The exhausts manifolds are the same, they will bolt right on.

By plugging 1 hole you can bolt the first gen. intake on a second gen. head. So you can put the 1st gen plenum on the second gen engine. :devil:

On the second gen engine you can also find 1 knock sensor on the block. If you use the 1st gen computer with the second gen engine, you will need to drill a hole to use the second knock sensor. You will also need to swap the camshaft sprocket and the flywheel to get the right timing marks to use the 1st gen computer.



Just use a first gen engine controller that has had the fuel maps adjusted for the higher-flowing 2g engine.

the ignition and everything can just be transferred over from the 1G engine.. ther is no rule that it HAS to be coil over plug...

The only real problem with swapping, using the same equipment is Lean under WOT. all other running modes on the engine automatically adjust for the lean running due to the Oxygen sensor readings. So the pre-programed fuel maps need to be "richend" up a little bit.


.......................................................................



The first generation Pcm doesn't have output device for the SRTV Valve. The MTV valve work at 3000 rpm with 1st generation and for the 2nd generation the valve work at 5000 rpm. My felling about that, is to keep the 1st generation intake whit the 2 throttles bodys. Maybe you will lose some torque ( the 1st generation doesn't have the short and long runner design) but you will gain more HP


.....................................................................................




The first generation Pcm doesn't have output device for the SRTV Valve. The MTV valve work at 3000 rpm with 1st generation and for the 2nd generation the valve work at 5000 rpm. My felling about that, is to keep the 1st generation intake whit the 2 throttles bodys. Maybe you will lose some torque ( the 1st generation doesn't have the short and long runner design) but you will gain more HP.
PLEASE take this with a grain of salt. :shocked:

First off, the power gain from 336 grams of steel is negligable.
Rules of thumb:
Losing 8 lbs of carrying weight (body mass) will give you 1hp, as will losing 4lbs of rotating weight.
You need a gain of 30 hp to run .5 sec faster in the 1/4 (assuming everything else is equal, but then its only relative)

Softer valve springs dont give you more hp, they 'might' offer less of a parasitic drag loss, but will also make your valves float (hang ten if you get my drift) faster at higher rpm's.

OBDII has nothing to do with comp ratio (nor hp either), most cars still come out with OBDII.

Block weight has little to do with hp-weight ratio, less than the actual weight of the car does. Less weight up front will help handling, but if youre not talking couple hundred pounds, then the difference wont be noticed. Save for the freaky people who have data loggers built into their butt....

Over boring a block will increase your displacement, generally only gains in a few hp (7 sounds about right), you will see more tq though. But you can gain more hp by upping the comp ratio. Think about it, .2 liters from 6 cyls=.33l per cyl, not much of a 'jump'.

Remember kids, the more air that goes THROUGH an engine, the more power it makes.

all i have so far......
please add/correct as needed.
 

·
Dain bramaged
Joined
·
7,208 Posts
Don't forget the 2g oilpan won't clear the 1st gen engine cradle. One of them will have to be modified.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,792 Posts
so im assuming that the 1g oilpan wont fit on the 2g block???
IIRC, it will, but the oil passages are different or something. So it may bolt up, but it wont actually work.

Like I said in the whore thread, it is an absolute crap load of work, and theres only been a few people who have even attempted it, just to either pull their hair out afterward, or remove it because it was more trouble than they figured.

I've never seen those posts before, so thanks for bringing them to light! that is a lot of interesting facts that I did not know before.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,642 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
IIRC, it will, but the oil passages are different or something. So it may bolt up, but it wont actually work.

Like I said in the whore thread, it is an absolute crap load of work, and theres only been a few people who have even attempted it, just to either pull their hair out afterward, or remove it because it was more trouble than they figured.

I've never seen those posts before, so thanks for bringing them to light! that is a lot of interesting facts that I did not know before.
so the crap load of work consists of what ?
i know it will bolt in, bolt to the tranny.
one motor mount has to be modded.
and the oil pain.

the only thing i can figure that would be so bad is the wiring, in which case i believe ACR said you could just use 1st gen upper/lower intake manifold & solve most of those problems. am i missing something ?

edit: reading other threads...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,642 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
see, i couldnt even find those threads... now this thread seems pointless lol
i feel like such a noob right now :cokey
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,792 Posts
see, i couldnt even find those threads... now this thread seems pointless lol
i feel like such a noob right now :cokey
Not really, just the sticky is imo lol.

I couldnt find them either when I searched, so I had to go through the project forum and found them all. I'm very glad the pics still work though, might wanna save those on your comp just for the hell of it.

But yes, see what I mean that it is a serious PITA?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,642 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
yea, wayy more of a pain in the ass than i was expecting.
i think ill go another route with my performance mods lol
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,047 Posts
Man thats a shame too. A 1G weighs less than a 2G. That wouldve been a quick car.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
760 Posts
could a first gen 3.5 intake be fitted onto a 2.7L fore more responce?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,018 Posts
I dunno if anyone looks in this thread anymore but i took a different approach. One of the biggest advantages was in the heads. the 1st gen had its good parts and the 2nd gen had its. so i did a hybrid of both. I took the 2nd gen heads and modifed them to fit a 1st gen. I customized my spark plug tubes, i had the passges welded and head decked, port valve job etc. Then used the stock 1st upper and lower intakes and made a custom fuel setup all with AN fittings and steel braid to make my own 1st gen fuel setup on 2nd gen heads. All worked great till i blew a hole in my block. After that i bought a Charger lol. But the setup came out extremely well and defintely felt stronger and pullled hard.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,642 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
I dunno if anyone looks in this thread anymore but i took a different approach. One of the biggest advantages was in the heads. the 1st gen had its good parts and the 2nd gen had its. so i did a hybrid of both. I took the 2nd gen heads and modifed them to fit a 1st gen. I customized my spark plug tubes, i had the passges welded and head decked, port valve job etc. Then used the stock 1st upper and lower intakes and made a custom fuel setup all with AN fittings and steel braid to make my own 1st gen fuel setup on 2nd gen heads. All worked great till i blew a hole in my block. After that i bought a Charger lol. But the setup came out extremely well and defintely felt stronger and pullled hard.
well if it really worked, that would be awesome :D
you should do a write up for us 1G guys :)
got any pictures>?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,018 Posts
this is the best i got for now, it was a while ago lol, there may be a ferw other threads i started about it, can prob do a search and see what else is up, but this was one of the final ones

http://www.dodgeintrepid.net/showthread.php?t=74199

there werer pics also, idunno if they come up or not, i am in Iraq and a lot of pics are blocked on this PC, but check it out and see if that helps at all
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top