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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I realize I haven’t exactly been around lately, work has been quite busy. But rest assured, I’m usually still doing something to the Trep.

As the subject says, I began testing a product that a friend of mine had just gotten himself. He’s from the area where the inventor of the product resides. I had nothing better to do, so I thought that I’d see what kind of results I could get.

First things first…I am not endorsing or dogging this product; nor am I going to be providing you with unsubstantiated claims. Although it seems that some older model vehicles get better gas mileage out of this, I was primarily interested in seeing how much crankcase oil blow-by was passing through the PCV valve and back into the intake manifold.

The product is called “The Condensator” and although you can pretty much make your own filtering system, I decided to try something that was already out there with a filtering system designed for exactly this reason. I bought it on-line after about 3 days of email questions to Tom over there. He was extremely helpful. Yes it costs a bit, but sometimes I just don’t give a ****. I paid $149.00 shipped. I won't reinvent the wheel so, info on it can be found here: http://www.condensatorsales.com/

Now the short and sweet:

Installation accomplished on 19 FEB 05 with 37,500 miles. (modifications required to fit it in our cramped quarters – PCV valve needs to be relocated).

As of 21 MAY 05, Current miles: 40,560. Total of 3,060 Miles/3 Months.

Basically, the filter is placed between the crankcase ventilation tube and the intake manifold. The PCV valve must be relocated so that it is prior to the filter. The filter assembly has hundreds of silica gel beads which filter out the vapors coming from the crankcase. Oil, condensation and any solid particles fall to the bottom of the canister, leaving a less contaminated vapor return to the intake.

Note: This does not affect the vacuum whatsoever. You “will not” get a check engine light (before someone comments on that)

I’ve been tracking my mileage, and I am only getting 1 extra mile per gallon on average. Not much to say it’s worth it, but that’s not why I got it.

As seen in the pictures below, the non-disputable tangible results are in color. I’ve filtered out 2 ounces of crankcase oil which would have normally been reintroduced to the intake manifold. So basically I’ll end up keeping 8-10 ounces of oil out of my combustion chamber annually.

Just thought I’d share some info on what I’ve been up to.











 

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Fantastic. So that's what's going into the intake and creating grime? What would be some advantages to this besides the obvious Less oil in the plenum lol? I'm not sure how to write that without it sounding sarcastic i'm seriously asking but as i read it, it keeps sounding smartassed :( sorry.
 

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The PCV Valve was introduced to reduce that contaminated source from being dumped in the atmosphere. In the early 80's, and back there were simply vents on the valve covers, usually filtered (to keep dirt out, not stuff in) which allowed the engine to breath to the atmosphere- as the mechanics inside move air shifts- valve cover gaskets could blow off and oil pan gaskets could blow out without venting. The air coming out has combustion byproducts and pertoleum contaminates from being simply inside the engine. PCV was created to redirect those vapors into the engine (to be burned/reburned) and avoid polution. The early 80's cars has a vent to the air filter housing with a simple filter on it, later 80's cars had a true PCV ventin the same way to the same place. The vent introduced the PCV gases into the intake with the clean intake air outside of the air filter.

Newer cars (because that system still allowed gas to escape) have the PCV directly plumed into the intake dumping the vapors in it behind the air intake plenum.

The addition of the PCV gases reduces engine milage, effeciency, performance and power because a certain percentage of the combustion chamber is now being taken up with this waste gas containing non power producing mixtures instead of clean cool air and fuel. (pcv gas is hot- it comes out of the engine- so it raises the mean combustion chamber temperature which is detrimental to performance) The air itself is not so bad as the contaminats (oil vapor mainly) do so by filtering out the oil vapor there should improve all of the above- possibly a noticeable amount but not necessarily. a 5% improvement is marginally noticable for example. Good idea that I think could be made more compact and probabily will be incorporated into cars OEM in the future (emissions increase by burning that oil vapor).
 

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Most of the PCV contents isn't blow-by, there is practically none there (unless your engine has virtually no compression).
Since oil is a volatile hydrocarbon the hotter it gets, the more it evaporates (See chrysler there is a damn good reason for an oil cooler) and these engine don't hold all that much (5 quarts, VW's 2.8 VR6 holds 6 quarts) the lighter components of the oil will vaporize and when the PCV valve allow for dumping (doesn't it completely check at idle, and doesn't the spring check at low vacuum conditions, so some where in between the PCV flows) and the oil will mysteriously vanish (onto the pistons and valves and onto the catalytic converters and oxygen sensors)

The film that covers the plenum usually comes from the evaporated gasoline deposits. The onboard vapor recovery system pulse width modulates the carbon canister solenoid to take care of those emissions.

A dry sump oil system will help to allow the oil gases to condense out (GM makes a big deal of this in the new Corvette 7.0 engine) before they will be sent to the engine. and help to de-aerate the oil.
 

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I can attest to the fact that oil does indeed get pulled out of the engine via the pcv valve. Before my trepi, I had a '98 caravan with the 4 cylinder. The original pcv hose had a small rip in it and the only thing I had on hand to fit was clear tubing. Not only did the tubing discolor to an amber color, but if you watched the tubing with the engine running you could see tiny drops of oil getting pulled up into the manifold. I have seen this "condesator" idea elswewhere. Actually Allpar has a how-to on building one out of pvc pipe and fittings. My trep has 66k miles on it and it seems to use about a quart between oil changes. I've had other vehicles that didn't use anything in between oil changes (none of them were DC products). My guess is, since I have no blue smoke and no visible leaks, that I'm losing oil through the pcv system. Part of the problem might be the design of the valve cover. I haven't seen the inside of one off an intrepid so I don't know how its designed. But on a chevy I had, there were baffles in the area of the pcv and I never noticed any oil loss between oil changes ever. And I could see where an oil cooler would be useful in helping to eliminate oil burn off by keeping it cooled, not to mebtion the added cooling effect for the engine too. Yeah I have noticed that the pcv systems on DC products really sucks.
 

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Would it be the same if the PCV valve is removed and on each hose, put a little breather filter that you can buy at pepboys? That way the engin sucks in clean air where the PCV valve was, and those nasty gasses still can excape. Or does there need to be somethin 'sucking' those gasses out?
 

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Skyline, the pcv valve is designed to flow certain amounts of crankcase vapors at certain engine conditions. Times like wide open throttle, when manifold vacuum is zero or close to it, the pcv valve will close. If you were to just put in a filter with no valve then it would defeat the purpose of having a pcv system in the first place. Now, Gman, I really don't think there would be any perfomance benefits from installing something like this. It would be more of a maintenance type of thing. This add-on would keep oil out of the combustion chambers and from getting burnt in the combustion process. In the long run, it would surely help to keep the valves, pistons, etc.. cleaner longer by not allowing oil in there. And if you have gotten nothing out of this thread, then I suggest you do some reading on what the pcv system does and how it works. Only then can you appreciate anything posted in this thread. I am not trying to diss you or anything but merely trying to educate you. For those that don't know, the pcv system is not only an item to keep crankcase gases from polluting the air (which I guess would qualify as an emission component), but also to help vent to pressure inside an engine, and keeping it from destroying itself. You may think a pcv valve is useless, try running an engine with one plugged up and see what happens!!!
 
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.....mmmmm.......























redline...
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Jeez, 4 days without any comments, now today all of a sudden there's 9. I figured that I had put just about everyone to sleep with this thread. I kinda expected it, seeing that there's no bling or burning rubber. j/k

Thanks to those for their detailed explanations on the PCV systems. I couldn't have stated it any better.

As froggy mentioned, this is primarily a maintenance and longevity issue when it comes to the engine. I do believe that older vehicles could get increased MPG's with this, but not our DC's. I don't purchase new vehicles often and when I do get one, I attempt to get every last mile out of it, so for me, this product is in fact eliminating contaminents that would have normally entered my engine. So in the long run, it does my engine right.

Performance? Well I've never been one to DYNO my car, so I couldn't possibly make any claims on this issue. My car seems to run better, but that could be entirely in my head.

MPG's? As stated above, I have been averaging approximately 1 more mile per gallon over the last three months. Some of those days were extremely cold, others extremely hot. Either way, I'll take that 1 extra mile with a smile on.

I'm certainly not trying to persuade anyone to run right out and get this. It was purely a curiosity of mine that needed to be quenched, so I figured what the hell.

I always believed that all kinds of crap was passing through the PCV valve and entering the combustion chambers. The results were definitely to my satisfaction in proving that. But what do I know, I'm just an "Average Joe" LOL!
 

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Thanks Power Pro. Glad that somebody actually tried one of these things. Believe my suprise when I could actually see oil being sucked out of the valve cover and into the manifold on the caravan. Again I think this is a problem with the way DC has designed the pcv system, specifically the valve cover. Like I said earlier, I've had other vehicles, Chevys and Fords that didn't used anything between oil changes. Some with high mileage, others low. I had an '81 chevette and I'd put in 4 quarts or whatever at oil change and several months later I'd drain pretty much the same out of it. And it got driven. What a beater but tough little engine. I would consider something like this "condensator" except for the steep price. But I'm pleased that somebody tried it or something like it. Oh and I mentioned earlier that Allpar had plans posted for something like this, I am corrected after looking it up. What they're plans are for actually is designed to go on the other end of the pcv system to keep oil out of the air cleaner. But I don't see why it can't be modified to put on the valve end of things.
 

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There is a much cheaper solution for this though I don't how it compares exactly to the one Power Pro is using. I know of numberous people simply running an inline fuel filter in the PCV line. It's amazing what it filters out and how clean it has kept their TBs compared to running without it. The whole thing will run you about $5 and you pick one up at any parts store...
 

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Yeah but I don't know how well a fuel filter will filter out oil. Oil is thicker than gas but... It is a good idea if a fuel filter will trap oil and allow it to drain back into the valve cover, otherwise it'll plug it up. Hmmm, I might have an old fuel filter laying around my cellar, I might try pouring oil through it tonite and see what happens. Db any idea what filter others are using, like part number or anything??? Its worth a look see. Actually, thinking about more, if I could find one of those clear ones and really see what is is filtering would be great. I think I'll do some searching. But let me know if you know part numbers or anything.
 

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I just asked one of the guys I know using this type of filter. He said he just went to Auto Zone and grabbed one he liked off a big display of them. He said it's one with a clear canister so he can monitor its condition. He got the idea off the MR2Club forums which he's a member of and is running it on his '85 MR2. Another friend is running one on his highly modded Talon and it sounds like he changes it fairly regularly. But at about $2 each he said it's not a big deal considering the amount of crap it filters out...
 

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Here's a couple links I just found with similar pcv mod's

http://www.stangnet.com/Tech-Articles/Create-A-PCV-Valve-Bypass-System-7.html

This mustang one is using the same clear filter I found at JC Whitney

Here's one for LS1:

http://www.hovis.cc/Firebird_HTML/pcv_mod.htm

I think I'm gonna look at my pcv stock set up later and see if there's enough room to add a filter coming out of the valve cover. Does anybody know what size tubing is used on our PCV system? I'm not that great at eying up tubing and knowing the size.
 

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I think there's a better, easier solution. RE my previous post relating to the early Chevy engines- the 350 in my father's 82 K5 had the breather as a rubber hose to the air filter housing with a filter (loosly termed) on the end inside the houseing. It was always coated in oil, that side of the air filter as well, and after a long enough time the inside of the housing was coated. Simply put- the oil had some place to condense. Why not add a small container similar in shape to the OP's picture in line with the PCV valve no filter, just a condensation container for the oil to condense in? Could be just as effective without much cost.

AND as for engines not useing oil- all engines use oil, most engines burn some reguardless of the compression. the rings don't seal completely and oil is splashed on the piston skirts and cylinder walls at the bottom to lube the pistons (else they would sieze), some oil gets burned in the chamber and some gas does blow by also reguardless of the compression. (obviously the worse the rings are worn the worse the compression and the more blowby) Newer engines are made with tighter tolerences so these are both less than in older engines- different makes have the PCV systems set up differently as well as the oiling system, crank scraper, windage trays, oil pan baffles, piston ring shapes/combinations, etc. Lots of variables deturmine oil useage. Worn valve guides and valve guide seals also cause oil to be used/burned- and an engine will burn a small amount of oil without producing blue smoke- remember the PCM adapts to the engine conditions so it can adjust itself.
 

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Ok, ok I agree with what you're saying, justme, about engines using some oil. I guess I should have worded my post as "virtually no oil used", instead. Seriously though, I've had motors that I never had to check in between oil changes because it would never get low. But these past 2 DC vehicles seem like they use a bit more oil than anything else I've owned (aside from the leakers!!). And like I said, with the clear tubing on the pcv of my caravan, I could watch the oil droplets going up to the manifold. I think what we're all here are trying to accomplish is to find a good way to keep the oil from going back into the manifold. My '01 trep has only 66k miles on it and I don't think it should be using any oil. I bought it with 48k and I do mostly highway driving. Really, is one quart between anything to be concerned with? Probably not but... Do I really want that burnt oil leaving deposits on the valves, pistons, etc... Definetely not!! So whatever we can come up with here can surely benefit us in the long run. I love my trep and I'm gonna do what I can to make it last.
 

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1 quart between changes is nothing to worry about at all. My Ram (before the valve cover gaskets started leaking because of my stubbernness about not changing them) used about 1 qt per oil change (6000 miles between changes). The older cars used at least 1 qt per 3000 miles. When I bought the ram at 42K miles it used less than a half quart between changes. Time use and milage affect oil consumption. As it is used pieces wear and tolerences increse causeing oil consumption. Highway is easier in alot of ways on a vehicle but it still causes wear. Until the oil consumption exceedes 1qt per change I wouldn't be concerned. I haven't noticed DC vehicles useing any more oil in comparison- my father's Gran Marquis used about 1qt per change, as does their Saab now.

A filter installed in the lines could add to restriction of the PCV circuit- as it collects oil vapors the filter is going to become more restrictive. A condensation container may be more effective in the long run.

Even with a quart being used remember we're all having the same experiances and there has been no detrimental issues brought to lite. Use good oil is all I would be concerned about. I used to use Havoline until I tore down an engine in one of my trucks and saw all the sludge and contaminates inside from that oil. I use Mobil1 Syn in the Ram and ususlly Mobil in the Trep.

If it's really a concern try a filter in line- it's cheap and easy to do. It will be interesting to see in use if the filter being dirty will throw a PCV code.

As soon as I can find a Condenserate container suitable I'll post my findings.
 
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