ABS issue

1937 Views 35 Replies 7 Participants Last post by sparkobee, 26 d ago

Leon22

Discussion Starter · Jan 15, 2022

I have a 2000 LHS and a recent ABS issue. I had the front brake lines replaced in the summer. The mechanic said he struggled to bleed the ABS module, but got it done.

Fast foward to now. I accelerated hard on a snowy road and the traction control engaged. Shortly after the ABS and traction control lights came on. When I turn the car off the lights reset and everything works again.

Couple things, first I tested the ABS, when I engage it on a snowy road the pedal becomes very mushy and there isn't much pulsating. As soon as I let go of the pedal it firms up and then the ABS and Trac. Control lights come on.

I noticed that when restarting the car, as I move forward, at one point the headlights will dim, usually when the door locks go and then the ABS light and traction control lights come in. This does not always happen.

Does this sound like there is air in the ABS system? Or is this just a sign the ABS pump and module have failed? Could it be a weak battery?

1 - 20 of 36 Posts

peva

· #2 · Jan 15, 2022 (Edited)

I would do and verify these things before assuming ABS hardware issues:
• Brake fluid reservoir full of fluid?
• No electrical system issues?:

a. Battery not weak or experiencing intermittent internal shorts (they can fail that way) - if not sure, have it tested (testing doesn't generally catch the intermittent shorting problem), and if battery has some age on it or has been abused (fully drained more than a couple of times and/or left fully drained over a period of time), it may be worth it to replace it to rule it out (have a known-good battery handy to temporarily try?). (Of course non-abused and younger batteries can fail "for no reason".)
b. Disassemble, clean (with baking soda/water paste if needed, plus wire brush), apply light-to-moderate coating of grease to, and re-assemble all mating surfaces of battery posts and cable clamps.
c. Disassemble the positive jump post (3 cable terminals clamped together) and negative jump post (2 cable terminals) - sand, clean, and grease all mating surfaces, and reassemble (tight, not just snug). (Use two wrenches - one on each nut - when disassembling/assembling pos. jump post - otherwise the stud will just rotate rather than nuts loosening/tightening. Disconnect neg. jump post before putting wrench to pos. jump post nuts so you don't get huge emission of sparks when/if wrench touches nearby grounded metal.)
d. Inspect (and clean up with baking soda/water paste if needed) green fusible link near battery in alternator branch of positive battery cable to determine that it is not eaten up (thinned down and near breaking), repair/replace if necessary, thoroughly dry if cleaned with baking soda paste, and apply grease and re-cover.
e. Verify alternator is properly charging: Measure voltage at battery or jump posts with engine at or above 2000 rpm with moderate load (cabin blower on high speed) - should read between 13.5 and 14.5 - towards the higher end of that range at lower ambient temperature, towards lower end of that range at higher ambient.

• Have the base brake system and ABS circuits bled - ABS to be bled using a DRB scan tool according to the procedure in the FSM page 5-68 (take it to a dealer if necessary).
• Doesn't sound like any fuse problems, but verify using ohmmeter rather than visual check (visual checks not reliable).

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Leon22

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jan 15, 2022

The battery is what I was thinking too. Mainly because my trunk was left ajar over a couple of days and it was like -10 to -15 degrees celsius. The battery was dead. I charged it up and the car started again, but its only since then that I noticed this new issue.

The only part that doesn't add up to me is the fact that the pedal goes to the floor when the ABS is trying to engage not sure what that would have to do with the battery.

Reactions: 1

peva

· #4 · Jan 15, 2022

Low system voltage due to a bad battery can cause strange symptoms. Or - perhaps they are two unrelated problems. 🤷‍♂️

Let us know how it goes.

👍

Leon22

Discussion Starter · #5 · Jan 27, 2022

So I had the battery tested, charged it up fully and the battery is good to go, as is the alternator. It saw some pretty tough tests this past week with temperatures over night in the -18 F and started without hesitation each time.

So I guess my next step is to get the system bled, which in the current weather isn't really in the cards for me. No idea what a garage or dealer would charge to do that with the scan tool.

I am tempted to get a BlueDriver scan tool and read the codes that are being thrown to at least get an idea. Or do you think that is a waste of money?

pt500

· #6 · Feb 3, 2022 (Edited)

You are obviously dealing with a safety issue here, if like you said you've still got a "mushy" feel on the pedal. I would not do any high speed driving until you get it fixed. Personally I wouldn't even take the risk of anything other than getting it back to a shop.

Details:
You could take the car back to the mechanic that replaced the brake lines, and tell him what is going on and that you've had the electrical system checked. You wrote that he "struggled" with bleeding the ABS, so I'd be a little wary that he may not know what he is doing regarding the ABS bleeding. First off, when he replaced the lines, he should have temporarily over-filled the fluid reservoir and plugged the open fittings as he removed them, so that the ABS pump ("Hydraulic Contol Unit" HCU) wouldn't have gotten any air in it, but obviously he must not have done that if he needed to bleed the HCU.

There is no "struggling" at all if you've got the proper scan tool. According to the FSM, there is no way to properly bleed the HCU without it; a pressure bleeder likely won't do it. If he doesn't have the proper scan tool it in the shop, he may be able to get one from another mechanic he knows, or even a demo loaner/rental from his local Snap-On guy, or other scan-tool service rep. On my 1st Gen, you do the manual bleed, then it takes just a few minutes with an old Snap-On MT2500 OBD-1 scanner to cycle the valves in the HCU (makes a weird buzzing noise), and then you repeat the manual bleed.

I'd suggest downloading the 2nd Gen Service Manual and printing out the appropriate pages to discuss with him. I have a 2002 manual hard copy and it is under "Brakes - Antilock Brake System 5-65, Standard Procedure - Antilock Brake System Bleeding". In the manual, they refer to using the Chrysler DRBIII scan tool that the dealers probably still have, but the appropriate Snap-On scanner for your year will do the same. My impression is that most consumer scanners can't do this, but I'm not at all sure about this; you'd have to look through their specs or e-mail the company.

If the mechanic can't borrow the right tool for your year to do the ABS bleed, you could call around to other shops and see who does - and more importantly who seems to understand quickly what you are talking about.

The last alternative would be to find a decent Chrysler/Dodge dealer service department (rare). If they've got good mechanics they will know exactly what you are talking about. They will have do do a re-bleed obviously - initial normal bleed, go through the ABS bleed cycling the HCU, and repeat normal bleed. A dealer service department will obviously be more expensive than an independent shop. Wherever you go, I'd suggest taking in your receipt for the initial work and just tell them the guy doesn't have the proper scan tool to do the bleed.

However, for a little more than what a shop would charge you to do the work, you might be able to find a scan tool that specifically says in the specs that it can do ABS bleeding for the year/model/engine.

As you probably know ,you can check NAPA's on-line approved shop listings to find a decent shop or Chrysler/Dodge dealer, and search online reviews and the BBB website for complaints. Find a NAPA shop at the bottom:

NAPA AutoCare Centers | NAPA Auto Parts

NAPA AutoCare is the largest network of independent mechanics in North America. We have over 14,000 locations.

www.napaonline.com

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pt500

· #7 · Feb 3, 2022

If you don't already have it, the service manuals are here:
2nd Gen:

www.dodgeintrepid.net

Second Generation Service Information

Factory Service Manual Download, Trouble Codes, Parts Catalogs, and Technical Service Bulletin Information

www.dodgeintrepid.net

www.dodgeintrepid.net

1st Gen:

www.dodgeintrepid.net

First Generation Service Information

Factory Service Manual Download, Parts Catalog, Trouble Code listings, and Technical Service Bulletins

www.dodgeintrepid.net

www.dodgeintrepid.net

And of course if you don't have them the appropriate Haynes (1st choice) and Chilton manuals for your year are good to understand everything, even if you are having a mechanic most work.

Leon22

Discussion Starter · #8 · Feb 3, 2022

pt500 said:
You are obviously dealing with a safety issue here, if like you said you've still got a "mushy" feel on the pedal. I would not do any high speed driving until you get it fixed. Personally I wouldn't even take the risk of anything other than getting it back to a shop.

Details:
You could take the car back to the mechanic that replaced the brake lines, and tell him what is going on and that you've had the electrical system checked. You wrote that he "struggled" with bleeding the ABS, so I'd be a little wary that he may not know what he is doing regarding the ABS bleeding. First off, when he replaced the lines, he should have temporarily over-filled the fluid reservoir and plugged the open fittings as he removed them, so that the ABS pump ("Hydraulic Contol Unit" HCU) wouldn't have gotten any air in it, but obviously he must not have done that if he needed to bleed the HCU.

There is no "struggling" at all if you've got the proper scan tool. According to the FSM, there is no way to properly bleed the HCU without it; a pressure bleeder likely won't do it. If he doesn't have the proper scan tool it in the shop, he may be able to get one from another mechanic he knows (they do this all the time), or even a loaner/rental from his local Snap-On guy, or other scan-tool service rep. On my 1st Gen, you do the manual bleed, then it takes just a few minutes with an old Snap-On MT2500 OBD-1 scanner to cycle the valves in the HCU (makes a weird buzzing noise), and then you repeat the manual bleed.

I'd suggest downloading the 2nd Gen Service Manual and printing out the appropriate pages to discuss with him. I have a 2002 manual hard copy and it is under "Brakes - Antilock Brake System 5-65, Standard Procedure - Antilock Brake System Bleeding". In the manual, they refer to using the Chrysler DRBIII scan tool that the dealers probably still have, but the appropriate Snap-On scanner for your year will do the same. My impression is that most consumer scanners can't do this, but I'm not at all sure about this; you'd have to look through their specs or e-mail the company. If the mechanic can't borrow the right tool for your year to do the ABS bleed, you could call around and see who does (and more importantly who seems to understand quickly what you are talking about). Or else bite the bullet and go to a decent Chrysler/Dodge dealer service department with the printout; if they've got good mechanics they will know exactly what you are talking about, and you can make an appointment (they will have do do a re-bleed obviously). Wherever you go, I'd suggest taking in your receipt for the initial work and just tell them the guy doesn't have the proper scan tool to do the bleed.

As you probably know ,you can check NAPA's on-line approved shop listings to find a decent shop or Chrysler/Dodge dealer, and search online reviews and the BBB website for complaints. Find a NAPA shop at the bottom:

NAPA AutoCare Centers | NAPA Auto Parts

NAPA AutoCare is the largest network of independent mechanics in North America. We have over 14,000 locations.

www.napaonline.com

To be clear this is not a safety issue other than there being no ABS or Traction control.

If I activate the ABS before advancing the vehicle and reaching the speed where the door locks close and the ABS test is run, that is when the pedal gets mushy, because the ABS gets to activate before the car's diagnostic test is able to disable it. Once the ABS light and Trac light are on, the pedal is as firm as can be, the base braking system works fine. Since the ABS and Trac doesn't engage after that test, there are no pedal or braking issues, other than not getting the benefits of ABS or traction control.

yevrah

· #9 · Feb 3, 2022

bad wheel sensor can trigger it all to.
circuit is good until you move.
no signal from 1 sensor and it triggers at a certain speed.
if there is a circuitry problem with the sensor, it would be there always.
probably more a bad signal than a missing one, which is why it takes a bit of movement to sense it.
a scanner should pick it up under past codes.
since these reset every key cycle.

Leon22

Discussion Starter · #10 · Feb 8, 2022 (Edited)

So, I got a BlueDriver code reader and I started the car, drove until the ABS test ran and the ABS and Trac lights came on and then checked the codes.

I ended up with three unknown 2 digit codes...
Unknown 20
Unknown 24
Unknown 25

The unknown 20 seems to be ABS pump circuit failure, based on searching the internet.

The 24 and 25 seem to be TPS and AIS related, not ABS, I don't get a CEL though. The car was idling a bit rough during the cold start today. This has happened before at random times, but usually evens out.

Is it safe to assume I have a busted pump module or damaged pump module wiring? Keep in mind the lights first came on after the traction control engaged pretty significantly on a snowy road while turning. The lights have now been coming on ever since, after the car runs the ABS/Trac diagnostic once reaching a certain speed (same speed the doors auto lock)

Could leftover air in the ABS pump do this?

EDIT, if I engage the ABS at a speed below where the car normally tests the ABS and Trac (I think it is 20 km/h or 12 mph) it engages, the pedal gets mushy, but The ABS and Trac lights do not come on. However, if I engage the traction control at a low speed by make the wheels spin on the snow, the ABS and Trac lights come on shortly after the traction control engages.

Thank You!

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Ronbo

· #11 · Feb 9, 2022

Still sounds like guessing as far as codes. The "BluDriver" seems not to be reading the ABS codes correctly. I would've invested in a Vident scanner or similar. The ones I have are able to read the ABS codes and even actuate the ABS pump for bleeding, etc. About $150.

yevrah

· #12 · Feb 9, 2022

no obd2 has a 2 digit code.
i'd be careful if you're finding the info for the right codes.
pre obd2 had different coding.
can you check stored codes?

Leon22

Discussion Starter · #13 · Feb 9, 2022

This BlueDriver tool seems to be garbage. Every time I scan there are different unrelated codes coming up lol

What Vident tool would you recommend?

Ronbo

· #14 · Feb 9, 2022 (Edited)

I have both the VIDENT iAuto700 that currently sells for $164.25 on Ebay and the Vident iLink450 that's selling for $209 from the sellers I bought them from. When I purchased them they were much cheaper from those sellers. I didn't look but I'm sure there are other sellers offering the same items for less if you look.

There's also the VIDENT iAuto 702Pro for around $159 that I would recommend. It has the ABS capabilities that would work for you.

Leon22

Discussion Starter · #15 · Feb 9, 2022

Ronbo said:
I have both the VIDENT iAuto700 that currently sells for $164.25 on Ebay and the Vident iLink450 that's selling for $209 from the sellers I bought them from. When I purchased them they were much cheaper from those sellers. I didn't look but I'm sure there are other sellers offering the same items for less if you look.

There's also the VIDENT iAuto 702Pro for around $159 that I would recommend. It has the ABS capabilities that would work for you.

So the iAuto702 pro will read the ABS and do the bleeding procedure? If I had to replace the ABS module, would it be able to match it to my VIN so that it works or would that be a dealership job?

I may get this, because I have a 2013 Volvo XC60 and it seems that a lot of the functions will work with that car too.

Thanks.

Ronbo

· #16 · Feb 10, 2022

It should be correct for an LH car. I'll put mine on my 2002 Special and verify it in the next day or two.

Leon22

Discussion Starter · #17 · Feb 17, 2022

So I got the Vident iAuto702 pro. Pretty robust reader. I ran through diagnostics and when I manually actuate the pump all my lights go really dim until I turn it off.

I tripped the ABS and Trac lights once again. The Vident identifies two ABS issues code 9 Hydraulic Pump Circuit Failure and code 1 Over Voltage.

I know someone said that these cars don't display single or double digit codes, but that is what is showing up. See attached.

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yevrah

· #18 · Feb 17, 2022

trans are 0700 codes.
engine is 0300 coes.
etc.
must be just the last relevant numbers.
anyways, sounds like a seized pump, since your lights dim.
if it was a short it would blow the fuse.
brakes work normal otherwise?
do you need it to pass a safety?

Leon22

Discussion Starter · #19 · Feb 17, 2022

Brakes work normal otherwise. No safety, just trying to fix the problem.

I tested all the valves to each wheel with the scan tool. They all seem to operate normally. Pedal goes to the floor when actuated and comes back up when closed.

It really seems to be an electrical or mechanical issue with the pump. Seized pump seems possible, something not working right with the control module, excess resistance somewhere. Who knows. It seems like replacing the pump/module is the answer. Not what I was hoping for lol

yevrah

· #20 · Feb 17, 2022

mine gets cycled pretty good each winter.
mines a 2000lhs as well.

maybe have a look around the maxi fuse, maybe try a reseat.
you'd be surprised how many times it works in fords.
i don't know where else to guide you.

maybe a flush/bleed might put fresh fluid in and remove any moisture.
maybe that will free it.
i don't have one in front of me, but if the motor is separatable you might free it or what it drives.
don't use oil of any kindon parts made for brake fluid.

being a dc motor, maybe it has brushes and needs a whack to loosen them.
lots of alternators come back to life like that. 🤣

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