[SANDMAN]

While driving home from vacation, the engine sounded like something broke loose on the inside. (2.7) We take it in and they spend a week getting to it and still can't figure out what caused itr. The number 5&6 cylinder walls are damaged, the rings are shot, pistons busted, and the valves for those cylinders are screwed up. They thought it was the oil pump but removed it and everything was fine. The warranty company asked for oil receipts and I'm coming up 600miles over the limit. I can't find any of my other receipts! They haven't said if it is oil change related, but I have a feeling they are going to take advantage of the fact that I don't have my receipts. (I change my oil myself) I bought the car with 48k on it, I have no idea what the guy before me did with it, or if he kept up his service, the car ran fine, even after the engine started making noise. I had to drive it 2 miles to the nearest hotel in Oklahoma City. I should find out tomorrow what the inspector found and what they plan on doing. What should I do if they try to tell me that it's not warranted work ?

***BTW, It's a 98 and I've only put 11k on it in 4 months, all highway miles.


Thanks

[ August 07, 2001: Message edited by: SANDMAN ]

 

[2KWK4U]

Well, to me that doesn't sound oil-related. If they really want to find out, they can take some of the oil that's in the pan and send it out for analysis. It sounds to me more like damage from extreme heat and predetonation. Think about it this way, 5&6 are your rearmost cylinders, and thus the most likely to run hot. If you mis-fired the hell out of them, you could float the wrist pins out, or bust holes in the top of the pistons. At the least, you could send them pinging back and forth against the cylinder walls thus eventually causing damage to your rings. The only thing that troubles me about this scenario is that your knock sensor should have picked up misfires that severe, set a code in your computer, and turned on a warning light in your dash (check engine or similar). If the knock sensor itsself were malfunctioning, that should have set a code/light as well.

Either way, it doesn't sound like an oil problem to me. It sounds like they're trying to pass the blame on you. If it were an oil-related problem, you'd be more likely to throw a rod, or clog a journal somewhere and screw up some bearings.

Of course, this is all going on your description of what has happened. I'd have to see pictures to believe that it's lubrication-related.

 

[SANDMAN]

Ok, here's the verdict.

#6 bearing spun

Screwed up the rod,sent metal through the engine. The found metal on the oil pump pickup screen and the housing was severely scored. Metal in the crank Journals and cam area. Heads are fine, but need rebuild to clean up.

They also said the found Wax in the engine??? How in the world would wax get in the engine, much less survive those conditions??

Resolution: Replace engine

The still haven't decided on whether or not they are going to cover it. I found an engine for 2 grand. It only has 13k on it and they are looking into it. If they can get one for that price, they don't see a problem with it.

I think that's bullshit They should replace it regardless of cost to them. I paid for the warranty. Right?

[ August 08, 2001: Message edited by: SANDMAN ]

 

[2KWK4U]

Hmmm, this sounds like an entirely different story. That most definitely is oil-related. Did they specify that they found "wax" in the engine, or heavy silicate build-up? A build up of silicates (silicone) indicates that your oil broke down either because it was left in there too long, you ran with a poor air filter or none at all, etc. One of the most important properties of engine oil is its ability to suspend contaminants (dirt which usually contains silicates) in fluid. Synthetics typically do this much better than conventional oils do. But all oils will eventually break down. With your next engine, use synthetic oil after it's broken in. Change your oil filter every oil change, and make sure your air filter is doing its job. Good luck with the warranty thing.

 

[Bart]

I'm curious... Would the original factory warranty have any problems replacing the engine if it was in fact an oil related issue?

Also, what would the chances be of a bad batch of oil. Maybe when the oil was changed, the oil that was put in there could have been defective. When I took my car in to get the wheels aligned, I was talking to the guy (there happened to be 3 intrepids there at the same time), one of those intrepids had a seized engine because the guy didn't change his oil for 25,000 miles. That's a lot of mileage to go through before he finally has to take it in. Even though you should have oil changed every 3,000 miles, 11,000 miles won't ruin an engine especially when driven mostly on highways. Logically, 11,000 miles doesn't seem long enough for this much damage to occur. (this is just my opinion... I could very well be wrong)

 

[SANDMAN]

I change my oil religiously in both the Intrepid and my Avenger. Every 3,000 miles or after a long trip. I use heavier oil in the Avenger, and I recently switched the Intrepid to Synthetic at the last oil change. After that is when this all started, and that is why I hate taking the car in for oil changes. I always feel that they are trying to screw me over.
I spoke with the adjuster and he's waiting for manager's approval for the bill and then the car is fixed

 

[2KWK4U]

OK, this is only a hypothesis, and based only partially in fact. Synthetics have more detergents than conventional oils as well. That's why some people develop oil leaks on higher mileage engines sometimes when they switch to a synthetic oil. The synthetic oil breaks down the sludge that was acting as "stop leak" at the gaskets, and all the sudden you have a leak. You say the car had 48K miles on it when you bought it, so you don't know if the guy before you EVER changed the oil. So it's possible that when you put the synthetic in there, it broke up a big glob of broken down dino, and lodged it in a rod journal of your crankshaft causing the #6 connecting rod bearing to run dry, and the rest is self-explanitory.

It sounds like you know how to take care of your cars, and I'm happy for you that the dealer is taking care of it for you. One word of caution. You said you use a heavier oil in your Avenger? Why is that? Most modern engines are close-tolerance, and heavier oils won't get to all the places they need to go. While it's true that racing engines run best on 20W50, racing engines get VERY hot, and they are rebuilt at least every few races. Heavier oils also rob power. If you think about it, it's easier to stir milk than to stir butter. I'd stick with the same weight or *lighter* in a synthetic oil.

 

[Bart]

2KWK4U, makes sense to me. I'm not familiar with synthetics at all. You seem to know quite a bit about that subject, so I have a question for you...

Someone mentioned before (I can't remember when or who) that once you switch to synthetic, you can't go back to conventional oils. Is this true and why? My car has 52k miles on it and in your opinion, would it make any sense to switch to synthetic? What you said about SANDMAN's situation makes way to much sense for me to switch to synthetic. I'm still using conventional oil right now. I've though about synthetic every now and then, but now I really want to get the facts.

 

[01Intrepid]

Well, as far as them replacing the motor with a used motor is "BS", they should be made to replace it with a new 2.7 engine point blank.... If I was in Sandman situation, I would go get an attorney. But back to the Oil issue. Mobile 1 is a very good Conventional / synthetic oil. but even though it does cost about $4.00 a qt, it's worth it. I'm getting my oil for $9.95 at the dealership while my car is under warranty, but when it's over I'm going to switch to a 10W 30 Mobile 1 oil....

 

[1mz-fe]

how many miles did the engine have on it when you switched from conventional to synthetic? an engine that has always had one type and then switches to another can't be healthy. i've heard that switching brands of oil is bad enough. certainly switching types can't be good.

 

[2KWK4U]

Bart,

If you're relatively certain that your car has been well-maintained to this point, there should be no harm in switching to synthetic. I switched my Miata over when I bought it with 85,000 miles on it. But the previous owner had every receipt and every oil changed was logged in the owner's manual by the mazda dealer. Nonetheless, after switching to Mobil one, I developed a few leaks, but the engine ran a little smoother, a little cooler, and I got about 2MPG better mileage. As far as switching back to conventional oil once you've switched to synthetic, there's no reason why you couldn't. The reason there's so much confusion about mixing synthetics and conventional oils is that the first synthetic oil (the original Amsoil, I believe) was not compatable with dino-oils. Switching to synthetic then REQUIRED that you flush all of the oil from your motor before pouring in the Amsoil. I can't remember if the two repeled each other, or if they congealed, but it was bad news. SAE (the Society of American Engineers) has several standards that oils must adhere to. As long as the oil meets your engine's SAE requirements (listed in your owner's manual) it should be fine for your car.

If you're not sure about your engine having sludge in it, pull off one of your valve covers, or betteryet, your oil pan, and look.

 

[SANDMAN]

k, here's the latest. They are getting an engine w/ 25k miles on it. 12,000 mile warranty. I just approved the work and everything is covered. I found all of my Oil receipts and sent them in today. They would have covered it regardless they said, so they didn't even look at them. Apparently the person before me did not keep up with oil and such, they found sludge everwhere, similar to caramel they said. There was no way I could have casued that within 9k (according to the reciepts I gave them) I had only put a total of 11k on the car, and had at least changed the oil once according to their records, so I was within the contract. According to my records I changed the oil 3 times. Can't wait to get the car back

[ August 09, 2001: Message edited by: SANDMAN ]

 

[Bart]

SANDMAN, glad to hear you're getting it taken care of. I now know how it feels to dump a bunch of money into a car with my transmission.

2KWK4U, thanx for the info. I think it's a big negativo on the synthetic being that my car was a rental. Although oil changes were probably on schedual (most of the time), I don't kow that for sure. I'm sure my car got beat up pretty good. I'll check into seeing how hard it is to take the oil pan off on my next oil change.

 

[SANDMAN]

Speakin of Transmissions, they also said the fluid hasn't been changed since new. Anyone know the service interval for a flush and change??

 

[01Intrepid]

Glad to see everythings ok Sandman.... This is for anyone who do there own oil changes.. If you see any sludge while draining the oil, like big goops fall out, the next time you change the oil, go get a can of Motor Flush... pour it in and run the motor for about 10min and then change the oil... that should clean the motor of any sluge, and goop. But if you change the oil every 3K miles you shouldn't have any goop in your oil, unless you get your oil from James around the corner. If thats the case, you don't know what your getting....

 

[Bart]

I'm not sure about the frequency of tranny fluid changes... basically, if it's still red and clear, it's OK.... I think. The owner's manual might say how often. I lost my owner's manual so someone else will have to look that one up.

If they change the fluid for you, MAKE SURE they use type 7176 chrysler approved transmission fluid (ATF+4). Many places like to use Dexron in chrysler transmissions and they "CLAIM" that it works for chrysler transmissions. Do not accept anything else but ATF+4 (or +3). Dexron will cause shudder in your transmission and can also cause the solenoid pack's screens to clog up and would cause intermittent gear shifts. http://www.allpar.com/fix/trans.html has the information and testimonials regarding that subject.

[ August 09, 2001: Message edited by: Bart ]

 

[DMAG]

The owner's manual states:

For heavy duty driving: Every 48,000 miles.

For regular driving: Never needs attention.


They are really digging now......Time to start getting mean with 'em.

 

[ATFCharger]

Hey SANDMAN, you a member of ASOG? I visit them and Stratusphere a lot. Nice 'venge

 

[SANDMAN]

Yeah I'm the Midwest President. Small world hehe

The oil I use in the Avnenger is for the trbo that should be going in soon. I haven't driven the car in over a month now due to a blown water pump and being on vacation.

When I talked to the service tech at the dealership, they said the tranny fluid was brownish. So, it sounds like it could use a change. Would I be better off getting the ATF+4? I have shitloads of ATF +3 int he garage (same as the Venge) Anyone know the major differences?

[ August 10, 2001: Message edited by: SANDMAN ]

 

[2KWK4U]

Sorry, can't really help you there. I know D/C trans fluid requirements are different than GM/Ford, and I know that older ford slushboxes require "type F", but I don't really know enough about either type of tranny fluid to advise. I do know that it's a bad idea to change Dextron III or older fluid if it's been in a car for more than a few years since it begins turning to varnish and coating everything in the trans. When you wait too long and change it, the fresh fluid breaks down the varnish film, and that varnish in turn clogs the valve body, etc... bad news.

Again though, I'm not sure if your ATF+3/+4 does the same sort of thing.

I thought I read somewhere that the big differences between Dextron and ATF+3/+4 is that the latter will withstand higher temperatures before it breaks down, and it doesn't have as much "slip additive" in it. I may not have my facts straight, just throwing that on the table.