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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I used the search and found that some later model cars had this and earlier ones didn't. I swapped a 3.5 HO out of a 2000 Intrepid into a 1999 model. The 2000 has an extra vacuum line that is connected at the cruise control connection on the drivers side rear of the engine. This is not present on the 99 car, nor is the hard line that runs to the back of the car, I'm assuming that hard line goes to the LDP pump and wiring. Does anyone know how to shut that code off, without using the LDP? Is it possible to swap in the LDP from the newer car? Other than that the swap went pretty smoothly thanks to the information on this site, I want to say thank you for that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Problem solved. I swapped the 2.7 computer back in and no more codes. This thing hauls the mail now so much better than the 2.7. I also found that the fan assembly for the 2.7 base engine does not have the additional relays that are there on the 3.2/3.5 models. soo, if you try and use the 3.5 computer you'll also trip codes for the fan control.
 

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...I also found that the fan assembly for the 2.7 base engine does not have the additional relays that are there on the 3.2/3.5 models. soo, if you try and use the 3.5 computer you'll also trip codes for the fan control.
Are you sure about that? Those additional relays are on the fan assembly itself, and are wired up to look (electrically) just like the 2.7 fan assembly module to the controls (PCM and PDC relays). IOW - even though they are wired differently internally (because the fan motors are wound/configured differently) and have the additional relays, the fan modules are interchangeable and the PCM can't tell the difference. FWIW, in '99, there was only one type fan assembly - the kind that came with the 2.7 in later years.

Also, the on-line dealer look-up catalogs are showing only one fan assembly for all of '98 thru '00. And if you plug in the fan module P/N shown in the '99 parts pdf's, the on-line catalogs show that it is superceded by the same P/N that is used with the later 3.2/3.5.

Were you actually getting a fan control code?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Yeah, I pulled the fan assembly back out after the install because with the RT computer in it I got the High Speed fan control failure code (1489 I think). No relays on the fan assembly. So I looked in the schematics posted on this web site and the 2.7 base model is shown with no relays on the fan assembly. I haven't been back out to the junkyard yet but when I do I'll look at the connector for the 2000 fan assembly and see if its different. If it's got relays down there it has to have more than the 4 wires that are on the base model 2.7 engine.
 

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Yeah, I pulled the fan assembly back out after the install because with the RT computer in it I got the High Speed fan control failure code (1489 I think). No relays on the fan assembly. So I looked in the schematics posted on this web site and the 2.7 base model is shown with no relays on the fan assembly. I haven't been back out to the junkyard yet but when I do I'll look at the connector for the 2000 fan assembly and see if its different. If it's got relays down there it has to have more than the 4 wires that are on the base model 2.7 engine.
(1) The high speed relay refers to one of the two relays outside the fan assembly that is on *all* 2nd gen. LH vehicles regardless of fan asembly type.
(2) Regardless of which type of fan assembly you have, there are the same 4 wires into the fan assembly: 2 ground wires, and one wire each from the PDC-located lo and hi speed relays. Look at the schematics again. All the two relays located in the 3.2/3.5 fan assembly do is adapt the existing controls from the PCM and PDC located relays to the motors whose windings are configured differently.
(3) Again, for '99 and '00, there was only the one type of fan assembly. It was only later that they came up with the second type.
(4) If you go to buy a fan assembly of either type from a dealer, the original type has been superceded by the second type.

Care to address any or all of those points? :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
1. so, I am using the free pdf that is posted on this web site. It shows two different arrangements the first is for a base model 2.7 engine with no "extra" relays at the fan assembly.
2. I swapped in an ecu from a 2000 model along with the 3.5 engine. Per the same pdf file those two use a different fan assembly. If you look at that pdf (8w-42-7) it shows the 3.5 engine uses both sets of relays not just the ones at the fan.
3. all of this was discovered after the aforementioned swap hence the reason I even mentioned it. so, swap out 3.5 pcm for the old 2.7 and no more hi speed fan code and the other one cleared too. Must be the 3.5 pcm was broken....or you might look at that pdf and think "hm, must be different fans since that's what this says, I wonder if those missing relays could be the reason for the fan control code?"
4. I was looking for some help and posting what I thought was good information in return. If the information is of no use then I am guilty of wasting valuable cyberspace.
 

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Your problem would be the harnees that goes from the engine plugs to the ECM.
Your original 2.7 one will not have the necessary circuits for the two-speed fans, so whether or not they are there would be immaterial, & since there would not be the correct wiring for them, the 3.5 ECM would look for them, but not see them, hence the code.
The 2.7 ECM works, because it didn't even know they existed.
 

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D. so, I am using the free pdf that is posted on this web site. It shows two different arrangements the first is for a base model 2.7 engine with no "extra" relays at the fan assembly.
That is for the 2002 model year. The '00 model year vehicle only had the one fan type, which I said at least twice.

i. I swapped in an ecu from a 2000 model along with the 3.5 engine. Per the same pdf file those two use a different fan assembly. If you look at that pdf (8w-42-7) it shows the 3.5 engine uses both sets of relays not just the ones at the fan.
Incorrect for the '00 model year. How many times do I need to say that?

c. all of this was discovered after the aforementioned swap hence the reason I even mentioned it. so, swap out 3.5 pcm for the old 2.7 and no more hi speed fan code and the other one cleared too. Must be the 3.5 pcm was broken....or you might look at that pdf and think "hm, must be different fans since that's what this says, I wonder if those missing relays could be the reason for the fan control code?"
Except that there was only one fan assembly in '99 and '00. Also, as I pointed out twice but you haven't comprehended it, if you go to the dealer with your '99/'00 fan assembly part number, the dealer will tell you that that number is obsoleted and superceded by the later 3.2/3.5 fan assembly. Try it and see if that isn't so.

k. I was looking for some help and posting what I thought was good information in return. If the information is of no use then I am guilty of wasting valuable cyberspace.

Head
So you feel you can't be politely - yes - politely challenged on mis-information that you post from you ignorance without getting personal. Are we suppose to let incorrect information lay there for others to make wrong decisions from? Rather than address the points I brought up, you divert attention by coming up with a cute way to make a personal attack. The laws of physics don't care about your opinion or my opinion or how cute you are in avoiding the technical aspect of the discussion. Makes me question if you can even follow the diagram. Do you know the difference between parallel and series? Can you trace the path of power thru a relay by looking at the schematic?
 

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Your problem would be the harnees that goes from the engine plugs to the ECM.
Your original 2.7 one will not have the necessary circuits for the two-speed fans, so whether or not they are there would be immaterial, & since there would not be the correct wiring for them, the 3.5 ECM would look for them, but not see them, hence the code.
The 2.7 ECM works, because it didn't even know they existed.
I may be misreading your post, Ross, but the lo and hi speed relays (the ones in the PDC) are there for both types of fan assemblies (for the years that use both types - which the '00 model year does not - it only has the one type of fan assembly from the factory, which makes the argument about which 2000 model year PCM is driving it ludicrous).

As I have stated, to the PCM, the two types of assemblies look the same - it has no way of knowing which one it is driving. For both types, for low speed fan operation, it energizes the low speed fan relay (in the PDC), and for high speed fan operation, it energizes both the low speed and the high speed relays (in the PDC) at the same time. 'Off' is with both relays de-energized. One only has to trace the two different circuits with the relays in their different states to see this.

It is not obvious until one looks closely at the arrangement of the motor windings in the two types. In the earlier type (same as later 2.7-only type), there are two separate windings in each of the two motors. In the later 3.2/3.5 type, there is only one winding in each motor. The relays that are built into the fan assembly are there to connect the two in series for low speed operation (as you pointed out in a similar previous discussion, halving the voltage to each motor) and in parallel for high speed operation. In effect, the additional relays (the ones in the 2nd type fan assembly) to "translate" the power logic coming out of the two PDC relays as a result of the PCM commands to work with the different motor winding arrangement of that 2nd type of fan assembly. In the original fan assembly design, in which each motor has two windings, one winding is energized for low speed, and for high speed, both windings are enrgeized.

Again - one only has to trace out the path thru the relays and into the motors to see that what I'm saying is correct.

I do not understand why people can't have reasoned discussions about things without getting personal. That's not aimed at you, Ross.
 

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Walace - If you can look at this rationally for a moment - look at 8W-42-7 and m8W-42-8. The PCM has no way of knowing what is going on beyond the PDC relays. It connects to the coils of the PDC relays. The contacts of those relays connect power from the fuses to the fan motors, or in the case of the later 3.2/3.5 fan assembly with the additional relays, to the motors and those addional relays. The PCM can't tell which type of fan assembly it is controlling. The fault codes are for problems with the PDC relays, which are the same for all 2nd gen. LH cars regardless of the type of fan assembly. The PDC has no visibility into the fan assembly - it can only see the coil terminals of the PDC relays. (Ignoring for the moment the fact that the '00 cars only had the one type of fan assembly)

Can you see that?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Hey man your right, you da' man. Sorry to have put out some bad info. The pdf I downloaded indicated 98-up I guess that's not correct as well. All's well that ends well. The car runs good on the 2.7 pcm with no codes so I'm happy with that. Next time I'll do some more research before I make a post.
 

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I may be misreading your post, Ross, but the lo and hi speed relays (the ones in the PDC) are there for both types of fan assemblies (for the years that use both types - which the '00 model year does not - it only has the one type of fan assembly from the factory, which makes the argument about which 2000 model year PCM is driving it ludicrous).

As I have stated, to the PCM, the two types of assemblies look the same - it has no way of knowing which one it is driving. For both types, for low speed fan operation, it energizes the low speed fan relay (in the PDC), and for high speed fan operation, it energizes both the low speed and the high speed relays (in the PDC) at the same time. 'Off' is with both relays de-energized. One only has to trace the two different circuits with the relays in their different states to see this.

It is not obvious until one looks closely at the arrangement of the motor windings in the two types. In the earlier type (same as later 2.7-only type), there are two separate windings in each of the two motors. In the later 3.2/3.5 type, there is only one winding in each motor. The relays that are built into the fan assembly are there to connect the two in series for low speed operation (as you pointed out in a similar previous discussion, halving the voltage to each motor) and in parallel for high speed operation. In effect, the additional relays (the ones in the 2nd type fan assembly) to "translate" the power logic coming out of the two PDC relays as a result of the PCM commands to work with the different motor winding arrangement of that 2nd type of fan assembly. In the original fan assembly design, in which each motor has two windings, one winding is energized for low speed, and for high speed, both windings are enrgeized.

Again - one only has to trace out the path thru the relays and into the motors to see that what I'm saying is correct.

I do not understand why people can't have reasoned discussions about things without getting personal. That's not aimed at you, Ross.
My comment was based on the fact he has a base 2.7, originally without 2 speed fans, so the engine to body harness, which has the wiring for the fans from the ECM, does not have the provison for the two speed circuits, so unless he changed that harness, which he obviously did not, then the ECM would not "see" the second set of fan relays, so would think they are faulty, and thus enters the code. By putting the 2.7 ECM back in, it could care less, because they were never there, no codes.
Would have nothing to do with the actual fans and relays, strictly the base harness.
Having had several ones out of the cars, I can attest to the fact, that those circuits are missing on the base cars, as I've had to change that harness when doing similar engine swaps to get the 2 speed fans to work correctly.
 

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Thanks, Wallace. All good.

My comment was based on the fact he has a base 2.7, originally without 2 speed fans,...
Huh! Now *I'm* confused. The '99 FSM schematics show two speed fans (just like the '02 2.7L schematics): Two windings in each fan motor plus the low -speed and the high-speed relays in the PDC = two speed fans. Both my '98 (Concorde LXi w/3.2L) and my '99 (Concorde LX w/2.7L) have 2-speed fans. Help me out here - are the '99 schematics wrong?
 

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Thanks, Wallace. All good.

Huh! Now *I'm* confused. The '99 FSM schematics show two speed fans (just like the '02 2.7L schematics): Two windings in each fan motor plus the low -speed and the high-speed relays in the PDC = two speed fans. Both my '98 (Concorde LXi w/3.2L) and my '99 (Concorde LX w/2.7L) have 2-speed fans. Help me out here - are the '99 schematics wrong?
All I can tell you, is that I've changed 1 engine out of a base 99 2.7 that had single-speed fans - no relays on the fan shroud - and I had the CEL.
When I tested the system with the DRBIII, it showed that there was an open circuit failure to the low speed fans.
Took a while, but I found that there were no wires in the harness from the ECM to the low-speed relay, and from the relay to the fan plug on the rad. I had to add them.
I also replaced a rad/fan assy in a base 99, the rad had the relays on the fan shroud, but would not run. I ended up replacing it with another one with no relays.
 

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All I can tell you, is that I've changed 1 engine out of a base 99 2.7 that had single-speed fans - no relays on the fan shroud - and I had the CEL.
When I tested the system with the DRBIII, it showed that there was an open circuit failure to the low speed fans.
Took a while, but I found that there were no wires in the harness from the ECM to the low-speed relay, and from the relay to the fan plug on the rad. I had to add them.
I also replaced a rad/fan assy in a base 99, the rad had the relays on the fan shroud, but would not run. I ended up replacing it with another one with no relays.
I'm shocked! I will be checking the wires out in my two Concordes this weekend. We've discussed errors in the FSM before, but to have something stated so explicitly (two speed fans) and shown on the schematics is not just a typo or ambiguous/inconsistent terminology.
 

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I'm shocked! I will be checking the wires out in my two Concordes this weekend. We've discussed errors in the FSM before, but to have something stated so explicitly (two speed fans) and shown on the schematics is not just a typo or ambiguous/inconsistent terminology.
You'll find over several years of FSMs, that the diagrams are the same, even though the items do no longer exist.
Case in point, the leak detection system in the 98 - 01 cars is still shown in the 2002+ FSM, even though it was changed from a pressized system to a vacuum system.
You can only find the correct service information in the emissions testing section of the book.
The FSM in the years 02 - 04 all show the engine oil cooler for the 3.5 engines, yet it seems that none were ever installed on them after 2001, at least no one has come forward with "provable" information to the contrary.
There are others I have run across.
Like the ad hype that all Specials came with SSS & had performance packages. I have sound in all my disassemblies, that is not the case, and in fact in later 04 Specials, I've found more without the "PHP" than with.
One just has to be aware that these things are not always as they are advertized or seem.
It is also the reason that a lot of FSM years have suppliments - I have 3 for the 98/99 years, 1 for the 2000, and 1 for the 2004.
 

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Here's another anomoly Bill, the 2007 parts manual show a 95 ish LH car drawing for the location of badging and trim itmes - go figure.
 
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