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Discussion Starter #1
Back in the late 1960's, my mother had bought a brand new Dodge Monaco station wagon from Boulevard Dodge Chrysler in Montreal where we lived. After a shade over one year, the car had starting problems. She called the dealer who towed her car to the dealership and it was determined it was a faulty battery. When she got there to get her car back, they asked her to pay somewhere around a 100$, which in todays value would be about 400-500$. She argued the car was nearly new with around 6,000 miles. They said the warranty was over by two weeks and she had to pay that amount or they would not give her keys back. She was outraged! She went to see her salesman who said he could not do anything as the sales and service departments were two separate entities.

In August, I was shopping for my trep STX and found a used 2004 at Autoland in Niagara Falls, Ontario, with 16,250km (about 10,000 miles). Before closing the deal, I called Daimler-Chrysler with the VIN to ensure the manufacturer would stand by the warranty and was told the car had been put on the road December 23rd 2003 and that the standard warranty would apply concerning the mileage and time. When I got to the dealer, he assured me everything was covered except for the brakes, particularly if the car had under 20,000km (about 15,000 miles) and that the car had not been involved in a major accident leading to a writeoff. The car had been at Budget rentacar in Toronto and had been owned by the Chrysler finance branch. Reassured, I bought it.

After getting in Montreal, I noticed the fog lights had lots of water condensation in them and were not working properly. I found out Boulevard Dodge Chrysler was the nearest dealership and had changed hands since my mother's dealing. It also carried a 5 star rating. I went there after getting an appointment and they made three holes in the fog casings and waited about 2.5 hours for them to service my car. A few days later, I noticed my fog lights did not light up at all. I took another appointment, figuring they would get my fog lights working properly under warranty.

After waiting 2 hours, they told me the fuse had blown and blew again after fuse replacement and needed to get their expert electrician on the case. An hour later, they told me they could not do the job under warranty because the discovered some silver paint fumes on the fog lights' wiring and therefore the car was not as it came out of the factory and that possibly some body work had been done and they claimed they could not be held responsible for the fog lights not working anymore. They said if I wanted to get the job finished, it would be on my dime or to call the dealer who sold me the car to foot the bill. I was shown the invoice which amounted to a little over 100$CDN. I followed my service rep who was searching for my car and left without paying. When I got home, there was a message on my answering machine asking me to go back to pay the bill...

I was pondering the situation where I had spent 6 hours in the service area, having to pay over 100$ for fog lights that still were not working and that I had expected to be covered by the warranty and was annoyed... I called up a long time friend who used to work as a GM claim rep for GM to get his opinion. He said the fog lights were working before they drilled the holes? They were not working after their work, it's their responsibility. You can even get the job done elsewhere and charge them for it after allowing them the opportunity to repair them. They never advised me, when the fog light drilling job was done, that the wiring paint fumes would nullify any further fog light work even though it was surely seen then. I called them back telling them I did not expect to pay for their bill and to get the job done right under warranty. I was transferred to the service manager who started moralising me for having left without paying the bill and that she had started the procedure to nullify whatever warranty I had on the car. Boy was I ever fuming! I ended calling the dealer who sold me the car and he has it up with Daimler-Chrysler. I'll probably have the end of the story in a few days.

While I may have considered modding my trep, I am unsure as that may be used as the slight excuse to say the car is not in its original condition and therefore the warranty is not valid anymore.

As far as I know, some paint fumes on a wire do not prevent the electricity from running within the wire! So, if you are in Montreal and need some service work to be done on your car, keep clear of Boulevard Dodge Chrysler...
 

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Paint fumes on the wires? Must be some strong smellin' fumes. I assume you mean paint overspray on the wires. Anyway, good luck on the repairs. I'd be hounding the selling dealer demanding an explanation. I woundn't be authorizing any "holes being drilled" either. Sounds like a bogus attempt at a repair. They should have replaced the fog lights.
 

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i too had a less than wonderful experience from that same lovely(b****) with my 2000 trep. they didnt pay the first day of a three day rental included with my gold plus warrnaty..and told me my engine is not covered, because my oil change receipts dont bear my cars serial# or plate #. i now have a trep, which might be selfdestructing, and a useless warranty...welcome to the new Daimler/Chrysler
 

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Drilling holes? I hope they do realize you can unscrew the housing and dry it out. On top of that its pretty hard to **** up a foglight, with the exception of maybe breaking the bulb. Honestly though save warranty work for large costly items, fix whatever you can yourself.
 

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It seems it's always a fight with a dealer doesn't it.

I guess I have a cheery note to add.
I just had my dealer(5 star) replace my fog light assemblies after the heat or something from the Silverstars I installed hazed the reflector surfaces. No arguement from the dealer, although I did leave out the fact that I had put aftermarket bulbs in them. They fit me in today(day before Thanksgiving) during their booked schedule and got me back out in less than 30 minutes. Their front man, I think we call them service advisors, seems to be a good guy.

I think I have 5 either Dodge or Chrysler dealers in my area. About 2, 15, 20 and 25 minutes away. I think all are "5 Star". So I have plenty of alternative dealers to go to if one or the other doesn't see things my way.

BTW Gilbert - Sorry Boulevard D-C is being such an ass
 

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Discussion Starter #6
OneFore9 said:
Paint fumes on the wires? Must be some strong smellin' fumes. I assume you mean paint overspray on the wires. Anyway, good luck on the repairs. I'd be hounding the selling dealer demanding an explanation. I woundn't be authorizing any "holes being drilled" either. Sounds like a bogus attempt at a repair. They should have replaced the fog lights.
Paint overspray it is supposed to be like some haze.

As for the drilling holes for the fog lights, another dealer told me it was what DC recommended and would not pay for new casings. That may be only true for Canada though...
 

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Discussion Starter #7
chuckchef said:
i too had a less than wonderful experience from that same lovely(b****) with my 2000 trep. they didnt pay the first day of a three day rental included with my gold plus warrnaty..and told me my engine is not covered, because my oil change receipts dont bear my cars serial# or plate #. i now have a trep, which might be selfdestructing, and a useless warranty...welcome to the new Daimler/Chrysler
Thanks for the warning. I have yet to get my first oil change but am due within a week and will now make sure my oil chage bill gets the car id.

My wife got her used Taurus SE 1999, in the Spring of 2002 with 27,000km from Dupuis Ford located in Casselman, Ontario, close to Ottawa. She has had *excellent* service from them. A bit far from Montreal but a real nice experience to deal with them. They know how to make the customer feel good when dealing with them.

The last time I was there, her radio had intermittent problems. I got her car there and waited for the repair to be done. They offered me a courtesy car at no cost whatsoever to go exploring the area. Even suggesting I go to St-Albert to go try their local cheese. Ever since, when going to Ottawa, I stop by St-Albert to get their famous cheese... Dupuis Ford had to get the radio fixed elsewhere, they installed another radio in the car in the meantime then had one of their man drive down to Montreal to install it. Casselman is about 85 miles from Montreal but can recommend them without any hesitation. My wife calls them up for advise for repairs to be done locally and they have always been available and took time to explain whatever needed to be explained with the calls done on their dime! They'll go out of their way to insure you are fully satisfied. As for their hourly rate, they are below what one can find locally but somewhat in the country. They are also well equipped and you can expect your car coming out of there washed even if you get out of there with a no charge.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
CaptainMorgan said:
Drilling holes? I hope they do realize you can unscrew the housing and dry it out. On top of that its pretty hard to **** up a foglight, with the exception of maybe breaking the bulb. Honestly though save warranty work for large costly items, fix whatever you can yourself.
I'll heed your advise. It's just that I expected to have the "right" treatment under warranty as one should expect. I guess I'm still very naive even though some of you might consider me an old man.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
04IntrepidSXT said:
It seems it's always a fight with a dealer doesn't it.

I guess I have a cheery note to add.
I just had my dealer(5 star) replace my fog light assemblies after the heat or something from the Silverstars I installed hazed the reflector surfaces. No arguement from the dealer, although I did leave out the fact that I had put aftermarket bulbs in them. They fit me in today(day before Thanksgiving) during their booked schedule and got me back out in less than 30 minutes. Their front man, I think we call them service advisors, seems to be a good guy.

I think I have 5 either Dodge or Chrysler dealers in my area. About 2, 15, 20 and 25 minutes away. I think all are "5 Star". So I have plenty of alternative dealers to go to if one or the other doesn't see things my way.

BTW Gilbert - Sorry Boulevard D-C is being such an ass
My first brand new car was a 1970 Dodge Dart Swinger 340 which I had bought from a friend who worked at Boulevard Dodge at the time. I never needed any warranty repair work on it. Of course the warranties in those days were standard at one year. I also had another Chrysler product: Chrysler New Yorker Brougham 1976 that I bought used when two year old but never went to any dealer with it. My previous warranty repair was on my 1989 Taurus SHO with a rear window defroster wire problem. (Just sold it yesterday with 69,000 miles on it.)

There are other dealers in the area but don't have any recommandations from people yet. I went to Pie IX Chrysler for standard lug nuts for my steel winter rims but balked at their 5.50$CDN each price and got them at 1.95$ at a tire shop nearby. I also inquired about my missing mag wheel center cap (std mag rims of the SXT) and was quoted 26.80$ for this chromed plastic cap. Geez talk about robbery!
 

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At the shop you wouldn't believe the amount of cars we get from rental companies. They just want the car scuffed and sprayed so that it appears new! A lot of time rental cars get scratches from people traveling and hard use due to the fact that it's not their car. So when the "quick" spray is done, the car is masked off, wet sanded, cleaned, resprayed, and then buffed. So the paints overspray travels to the undercarrige and bonds onto whatever it can. Thats probably what happened in your case.

I have seen electronics stop working due to paint overspray or fumes. We have had door panels off and the power windows not work after paint. We noticed that the prep guy was slippin' on his job by not masking them off fully! So that also could have played some wierd part in it.

But still, to void a warranty because it has some overspray on the wires is a little strong, but they do have a concrete reason. They don't know if you wrecked it then had it fixed and want free labor on the lights, ya' know? So don't necessarily blame them because they are doing what they were taught. Just my opinion, lol!
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
unkut2003 said:
At the shop you wouldn't believe the amount of cars we get from rental companies. They just want the car scuffed and sprayed so that it appears new! A lot of time rental cars get scratches from people traveling and hard use due to the fact that it's not their car. So when the "quick" spray is done, the car is masked off, wet sanded, cleaned, resprayed, and then buffed. So the paints overspray travels to the undercarrige and bonds onto whatever it can. Thats probably what happened in your case.

I have seen electronics stop working due to paint overspray or fumes. We have had door panels off and the power windows not work after paint. We noticed that the prep guy was slippin' on his job by not masking them off fully! So that also could have played some wierd part in it.

But still, to void a warranty because it has some overspray on the wires is a little strong, but they do have a concrete reason. They don't know if you wrecked it then had it fixed and want free labor on the lights, ya' know? So don't necessarily blame them because they are doing what they were taught. Just my opinion, lol!
I bought the car used when it had 10,000 miles on it (16,250km). Chrysler finance was the original owner and Budget was the leaser in Toronto whom, I've been told, is owned by DC. It was then auctioned to Chrysler dealers and I bought it August 5th from a Niagara Falls Chrysler dealer (AutoLand). As for me, I've not had any accident with it since owning it and drove 2300 miles since getting it. So why can't DC, who owned and maintained the car can't stand behind its warranty?

When you say: "I have seen electronics stop working due to paint overspray or fumes.", I can see that if the motor or mechanical parts that would be oversprayed not working properly or a terminal being sprayed not making contact anymore but the wires are sheathed and don't see how their electrical specs would be affected by paint.

The other point may be philosophical but, if the manufacturer gives its customers too much of a hassle for the warranty, the customer will eventually walk away. The old saying tht the customer is always right is true in more ways than one unless one has a monopoly. Boulevard Dodge has succeeded to turn me into an ennemy who will take every opportunity to warn potential or existing customers about them. I'll make damn sure that whatever profit they tried to "steal" from me they will lose tenfold. I consider what they are doing to be similar to extortion and have contempt for people or businesses that do business this way.
 

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Gilbert said:
I bought the car used when it had 10,000 miles on it (16,250km). Chrysler finance was the original owner and Budget was the leaser in Toronto whom, I've been told, is owned by DC. It was then auctioned to Chrysler dealers and I bought it August 5th from a Niagara Falls Chrysler dealer (AutoLand). As for me, I've not had any accident with it since owning it and drove 2300 miles since getting it. So why can't DC, who owned and maintained the car can't stand behind its warranty?

The other point may be philosophical but, if the manufacturer gives its customers too much of a hassle for the warranty, the customer will eventually walk away. The old saying tht the customer is always right is true in more ways than one unless one has a monopoly. Boulevard Dodge has succeeded to turn me into an ennemy who will take every opportunity to warn potential or existing customers about them. I'll make damn sure that whatever profit they tried to "steal" from me they will lose tenfold. I consider what they are doing to be similar to extortion and have contempt for people or businesses that do business this way.
Most likely the dealer who you are dealing with doesn't have a clue about why there is overspray underneath the car. Most likely the bumper was repainted to cover up rockchips and such with it being a former rental, and that dealer probably doesn't even know it. I've personally delt with 2 different Dodge dealerships so far and they have both been great to myself and my Mom, or local Ford dealer on the other hand can go suck an egg for all I care, very shitty service, and tried to give us the car back with oil leaking even worse out of it.
 

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Don't blame the dealer. Thats DC cost cutting. They denny any warranty claim they can to cut warranty cost. Why do you think warranty cost of gone down. Not because of better quality but because they pay for fewer things.
 

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I won't compare Dodge service to Infiniti because I paid a premium for the better service, but before my Dodge Intrepid I had a Ford Probe. Ford service was much better than Dodge. I tried a number of different dealers and they were all bad.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
adaptabl said:
Don't blame the dealer. Thats DC cost cutting. They denny any warranty claim they can to cut warranty cost. Why do you think warranty cost of gone down. Not because of better quality but because they pay for fewer things.
I thought (not sure of the name) J.D. Power & Associates claimed the Concorde had a user satisfaction level that was much higher than other US manufacturers and that, since built at the same plant of Brampton, ON, one could assume other LH based cars would be similarly built... It was a survey that inquired about repairs that had to be done within the first three years or something of that nature. I read that sometime in July but did not keep the reference but was something that had some weight in trying to determine what car I would choose.
 

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alderran said:
I won't compare Dodge service to Infiniti because I paid a premium for the better service, but before my Dodge Intrepid I had a Ford Probe. Ford service was much better than Dodge. I tried a number of different dealers and they were all bad.

My Dealer is a Nissan/Infinity dealer so everyone gets great service if they need it. I have only had oil changes and one recall done in the first 3 years of ownership. From this experience it shows they care about the customer. Makes you want to go in for an oil change.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
alderran said:
I won't compare Dodge service to Infiniti because I paid a premium for the better service, but before my Dodge Intrepid I had a Ford Probe. Ford service was much better than Dodge. I tried a number of different dealers and they were all bad.
We may wonder what criteria defines better service?

In Montreal, dealers have higher hourly rates than any other car repair businesses. They justify their higher rates with the fact that their mechanics get more training and more specific training than general shops. They also claim their service centers to be better equipped with specific equipment to deal with possible problems. Therefore you would be supposed to pay less than comparable shops since the mechanic would be able to diagnose the problem quicker and have the job repaired in less time with better quality parts. That is in theory...

In practice, I have not found them to charge for the real time they spend on your car. Like most shops, they try to charge as much as they can hoping the customer will not say a word and try to contest. They pretty much charged for an hour in my fog light experience. Does it take an hour to open the hood, find a burnt fuse, change it, turn on the fog lights, see they're off and look at the wiring for specialised factory trained techs? Of course, they often have corporate customers that never try to contest any invoice since the invoices are paid by some clerk who has no idea what repairs were requested or what the parts are for. They don't want you in their service area under the pretense you might get hurt and their insurance will not cover you but I strongly suspect it is more because they don't want you to check on their work. That way, you don't have a clue when your car was taken into the service area nor if the mechanic was working on someone else's car and took a 15 minute break on your dime at 80$/hour.

When I folowed a computer security course with the Canadian RCMP, they had this perspective: 20% of people will try to steal whatever the risks, 50% will eventually try to steal IF they consider the risks of getting caught are negligible, 30% of people will never try anything reprehensible under any circumstance. One can argue the exact percentages but have come to the conclusion that, given a large enough sample, the percentage of perfectly honest people to stay under 50%. When I witness a dealer refusing a customer his car keys or threatening to void their warranty unless they pay their bill, I wonder what difference there is between this and extortion?

Lawyers nowadays have become unaffordable for ordinary folks. The biggest problem I have with them is they will take any case as they are sure they won't lose any money and will often advise you according to how much they can profit from you. They always seem to end up getting more money from their efforts than whatever you will get. Here, in Canada, we also have consumer protection agencies and government run organisations. Not only are they rather slow but you will need to spend quite a bit of your time which ends up making you feeling you spent an awfull lot of time for what you seem to gain. (Reminds me of my 2 dealer visits, 6 hours of waiting, an unpaid 106$ bill and still no working fog lights...)
 

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Just a note - and not defending or crucifying the dealers Gilbert - ALL dealers, not just DC, charge according to a flat rate book, whether it be longer or shorter time is immaterial. If the repair is 1 hour according to the book, that is what you pay, even if it takes 2 hours or 1/2 hour. Also note that the dealer does not get the same rate under warranty as they do when the customer pays, it is usually 20-25% less. The mechanic gets the same rate though.
I worked for Chrysler in the "old days" and I can tell you that some jobs were just plain brutal - you'd spend 8 or 9 hours doing a warranty repair on your 340 duster's 727 transmission - it paid 7.2 hours, that was for re & re as well as replacing everything inside - trying to get the mangled parts out 'cause the owner raced the snot out of it and burned or destroyed every major component.
By the same token, a water leak could take hours to find and repair, only to get me 1/2 hour's pay. Then the blasted customer would whine and ***** 'cause it took so long.
Also, the company and mechanic doesn't get any money from Chrysler for a subsequent visit for any same repair.

Anyway, if you really want to try to get satisfaction tell the offending service manager that you wish to talk to the "ZONE REP" for DC. Don't take no for an answer. The zone rep has the say over the dealer for any and all warranty repairs. Get on his case about where and the circumstances of your original purchase. They generally are a lot more understanding than the service managers.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Torontofirecaptain said:
Just a note - and not defending or crucifying the dealers Gilbert - ALL dealers, not just DC, charge according to a flat rate book, whether it be longer or shorter time is immaterial. If the repair is 1 hour according to the book, that is what you pay, even if it takes 2 hours or 1/2 hour. Also note that the dealer does not get the same rate under warranty as they do when the customer pays, it is usually 20-25% less. The mechanic gets the same rate though.
I worked for Chrysler in the "old days" and I can tell you that some jobs were just plain brutal - you'd spend 8 or 9 hours doing a warranty repair on your 340 duster's 727 transmission - it paid 7.2 hours, that was for re & re as well as replacing everything inside - trying to get the mangled parts out 'cause the owner raced the snot out of it and burned or destroyed every major component.
By the same token, a water leak could take hours to find and repair, only to get me 1/2 hour's pay. Then the blasted customer would whine and ***** 'cause it took so long.
Also, the company and mechanic doesn't get any money from Chrysler for a subsequent visit for any same repair.

Anyway, if you really want to try to get satisfaction tell the offending service manager that you wish to talk to the "ZONE REP" for DC. Don't take no for an answer. The zone rep has the say over the dealer for any and all warranty repairs. Get on his case about where and the circumstances of your original purchase. They generally are a lot more understanding than the service managers.
What you are saying about the flat rate charge is probably true in a number of situations like when a potential customer asks for a quote on a known repair or when an insurance claim adjustor tries to determine how much the repairs are going to cost. The part that worries me is when Joe Blow comes with his car without a clue about what's wrong with his car and happens to deal with a lesser reputable dealer...

Back in the early 1970's, I enroled in an evening course at the Montreal trade school on carburation and electricity. Not that I intended to earn a living in it but to have a better idea on how this stuff works. While I remember some of the basics, I often feel lost even though I may have been able to get the computer codes and found its relative significance. For instance, I had an intermittent problem on my 1989 Taurus SHO. The last time I checked, I was getting a code that translated to "low speed fuel pump circuit failure." I had already changed the crankshaft and camshaft positioning sensors, water pump, Walbro fuel pump, DIS module, Integrated Relay Control Module and the car always started without problem. Yet, on the highway, the motor could randomly cut for a brief second and the problem would get worse as time went. It could also happen in the city. I could drive 80 miles without any problem then go 3km and there it is again... First generation SHO are extremely rare around Montreal. I asked questions on the SHO forums and followed the recommandations. Eventually there were no recommended solutions. A good thing I did some of the work myself and ordered most of the parts on the internet or got the parts at reasonable cost locally.

Part cost is the other aspect that I find outrageous. My experience is very limited so far: lug nuts and center cap for the chromed mags that came on my SXT. When at the parts departement at the dealer, I said I needed plain lug nuts to go with my steel rims for the winter season. He said he had two models: one was like 9 or 10$ and the other model was 5.50$. Needing 20 lug nuts for the four rims wouls have amounted to 110$. Canadian Tire did not even have a part number for them. My regular car parts store was out of stock. Finally found some at 1.95$ at a tire shop. As for the center cap, a 2" round piece of plastic in a chrome finish: 26.80$ before tax! I probably lost one when going over a speed bump I noticed a bit late and saw I may need another one as it has two plastic legs broken and quite likely to fall. I wonder where I could get them at a reasonable price? I intend to put some Goop on them, that way they won't fall off so easily.

As for the zone rep, the dealer who sold me the car said his zone rep would contact Boulevard Dodge's zone rep. I have yet to hear anything.
 

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You should go directly to Boulevard and make an appointment to see the Zone rep, or call D/C Canada with the request.
Your centre caps are covered by warranty as well, - just had all 4 of mine replaced at N/C - go after the service manager for that too. The new ones are more expensive, as they are not the cheap plastic, but are what appears to be stainless, with rivetted clips on the back, so as to not fall off. It is a known problem, and you should get the replacements free.

I do agree that the price of today's parts are outrageous, but that is not just a DC situation - they are all the same. Then, if you buy aftermarket, most are made off shore and only last a short time, so in the end, you pay the same.
 
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