[Intrepid _96_35L]

Hello everyone, I'm a new member to this group and I have a thousand questions and some creative ideas I'll be posting soon.

Plain and simple I'm looking for performance anywhere I can find it.
(By the way I live in an area completely deviod of good service or decent car guys)

Anyway I was wondering what are the best plugs and wirers to get(for a 96, 3.5L), where can I get them (preferably from a Canadian supplier, the exchange rate is brutal) and what will they run me (CDN, or US)

Things I was wondering are: whats better platinum or regular,one tip or four, Bosh, Autolight, Motomaster, NGK, Jacobs, any difference???
The local stores sell NGK Iridium Platinum single tipped plugs for 2.5X the price of any of their other plugs and claim they give the car noticably more hp and gas milage, any truth to this? Are they worth it.

Also wire diameter, any difference, 7.5mm, 8mm, 8.5mm, What do you recommend?. Is it possible to give our cars to much spark?

Ok just 2 more questions: 1) Will mods I make in the future require more spark, I'm looking into having the exhaust done and if its possible, ram air - short of that at least the best cold air intake I can make.

2) I hear guys talking about using MSD DIS-4 ignition systems on their cars or a similar system from Jacobs (I've read a lot of the back posts), what exactly are these systems, do they provide the gain they claim (I think I heard, about 10hp & 2mpg) Are they only needed when doing extream mods and do they require special plugs and wirers?

Thanks for any input. Sorry about the length.

 

[1mz-fe]

first welcome to the boards.

if you need new plugs, the best thing you can do is Champion Gold, pretty much. a lot of people waste lots of money on platinum +4s and other platinums when platinum plugs really aren't the best for the 3.5 (and other chryslers). i wouldn't bother with splitfire or 4 tips or any other BS, plain old single tip is the best way to go.

for wires, go Taylor vertex 8mm pro series. they are great wires and i plan to get some this summer. they're also necessary if you want to (and this is a great segue...) use MSD DIS-4 ignition. i wouldn't go with the jacobs stuff, MSD is way better and less expensive. it DOES require those taylors or similar wires, but any plugs should work. ask corey about real-world gains from the MSD ignition system, he is the only one that has it installed, though i plan to get it this summer.

also check corey's intrepid for cold air intake. this is the easiest, cheapest and most effective intake mod you can do to the 3.5.

check www.dodgenut.com for more info on all the mods.

 

[94IntrepidES]

Ok I'll see if I can explain this for you, but of course others will disagree. Mopar mechanics and engine guros generally know that mopar engines tend to love champion, not just cause they come with them either. There are TONS of spark plug gimics out there so don't fall for it, unless you like bragging about useless technology. Platinum plugs are great but don't do the BEST in this engine. Many know how neons literally eat platinums in a short time, our motors won't do that but its not the best choice. Go get you champion golds and you'll be more than pleased. Tend to have to order them, no its not the truck plug or copper plus its called gold and they rarely sit in stock for such "rare" owners who run good plugs in our cars. Ok the ignition thing, man have I got tons of people asking about this thing. Basically here it is what I tell everyone:

These engines as well as other chrysler engines are notorious for rich WOT. They did this to save cad. conv. when they get hot. Many racing teams do this as well. You may notice with vipers in some racing series seem to put out a lot of black smoke under heavy breaking. This is where they run a little rich cause it runs the engine cooler. They do that to close the front end off more, simple fuel is a fluid and will run it cooler if you don't get such high combustion chamber temperatures. Also, the 3.5 cars have that evil torque management. You may notice, when cold, your car seems to turn more rpms than usual to maintain a speed. Then later you see the tach drop and the speed maintained. This is the car changing timing, injector pulse, etc in idea to ease up the load on the tranny, aka Torque Management. Also, everytime you shift no matter how hard or soft the pcm will shut off a few injectors. It does this to ease the load on the tranny when shifting. I'm sure you have noticed that when you shift it isn't as smooth sometime like the motor goes down some this is why. The msd seems to help this by "making the most" out of the fuel that is given. I have noticed my shifts are smoother and have to believe that this is better for the tranny then on and off increases under heavy throttle. Plus the whole idea of all msd's is a huge ass capacitor. When your car goes over 3,000 rpm no matter what alternator or battery voltage goes down and ignition is the first to suffer. The MSD shows itself over 3 grand for sure. You can notice the car revs much quicker above 3 grand and shows no sign of backing down. The MSD does do a spark for 20 degrees of crankshaft rotation which ups efficieny for sure. I consider the MSD a HUGE gain for everyday driving and for performance.


A general agreement on the web and in person about the MSD DIS-4 on a stock engine is about two tenths in the 1/4 which roughly depending on the car and platform is around 20 hp. I did gain on gas mileage with this system for sure and my other mods combined. I get 29.5 mpg on the highway including 15 miles of city driving on a 300 mile trip and one stop for food and one for rest stop, mind you this is at elevations from sea level to 2,300 ft. I average about 150 lbs of luggage tops I say which is like two people riding and about 77 to 80 mph with bursts over 80 easy. When I first got the car stock that sort of drive averaged around 25 mpg. For the MSD you have to get wires that aren't solid core and plugs won't matter just the gap. The MSD will fire any plug the same no matter what just dont' recommend a platinum plug for the application due to cost and how the 3.5 hates them anyway. I got taylor vertex 8mm wires that cost me like 70 with shipping. Others on the board got them off my recommendation and love them just ask around. I run champion gold plugs too but need to close the gap down some on them since on high speeds I notice I am burning the fuel off a tad too fast. There is a set rule or standard of how to gap plugs with this system and based on compression.

The Jacobs wire and system are high quality no doubt. Though they cost way more and don't listen to their claim of how they connect with no wire cutting. Its only on the applications they list on their site and more power to them if that changes. The systems offer the same gains and many know that MSD has a huge reputation for success and good products. Plus, i've heard that Jacobs doesn't have a solution yet with cars that need tach adaptors like mine, and many gm and fords. Supposively they are working on it and shouldn't be that hard to solve since its no big secret to how msd makes them. If i left anything out ask me again or someone else here knows what I did.

 

[Marcus]

DUDE, the tach drops as the engine warms up due to the torque converter finally locking in.

Normally (with a nice hot engine) the torque converter locks in to eliminate slippage somewhere around 40mph cruising. However, the transmission's torque converter will not lock in to eliminate slippage until the engine/tranny temperature reaches a certain level. As a result, the rpm's at a given cruising speed will be higher initially, then drop down when the engine/transmission reaches an adequate temperature and the torque converter is allowed to lock in while still cruising at the same speed, causing the tach needle to drop. This will take longer to occur on colder mornings when the engine takes even longer to warm up.

By the way, Chrysler's primary goal with cutting a few injectors momentarily during a shift was to reduce shift duration. When the engine is under wide-open throttle, cutting a few injectors just momentarily during a shift reduced shifting duration drastically compared with the engine at full power. The shift duration was cut by as much as half a second if I remember the technical brief I read. This shift improvement scheme is what makes manual shifting sometimes "feel" a bit overly firm, even clumsy at times, since the computer can't plan for the shift and power interruption to occur smoothly.

Just like with a manual transmission, cutting shift duration on an automatic improves overall performance, so defeating the system *alone* probably doesn't improve acceleration unless you have some sort of shift improver kit in the tranny to boost shift performance even with full power allowed during shifts.

If you can defeat the power reduction during shifitng, the shifts probably will feel smoother since the shift duration is necessarily lengthened. Probably you won't even notice much, if any, durability issues since I would imagine the transmission can handle it just fine, but a longer shift duration might negate the peformance gain that might be had by keeping the engine at full power through the shifts.

One thing kinda bugs me -- What is the deal with our cars "hating" certain plugs? Is it a voltage issue or what? It's kinda like when people say their engine "hates" synthetic, or is now "used to" ATF+3 but would "break apart" if they switched to ATF+4 or other things like that -- the car is mechanical and doesn't love or hate things. What actually causes the excessive plug deterioration or whatever problems the Platinums, Splitfires, +4's and other plugs all seem to have that Champion Golds don't have? Seems a little odd that all those other plugs are just not suitable, but Champion and Champion Gold is just terrific!?

The second-gen cars have different engines with entirely different ignition systems, so why don't they now "love" +4's and "hate" Champions? Would sure "love" to hear more specifics!

Thanks!
Marcus
'98 3.2L ES

 

[p3]

I'm not going to say what I have on my car is the best and that's the ONLY thing you should get because it is just ungodly awesome. What I have on my car is Bosch Platinum plugs (not the over-hyped +4's) and Autolite 7.5mm wires. The plugs cost me about $3 a piece and the wires were about $24 for the set. After I installed them I noticed the car ran a little bit smoother and got a bit better gas mileage. No performance increase at all if that is what you are looking for. Also I have the 3.3L motor so the effects may be different on your 3.5L, I'm not sure.

 

[mgkuhn20]

Hey Platinum,

Where do you get the Champion Golds, I looked on-line at some parts stores and called a couple local ones and no one carries them. I found a good article explaining differences in plugs and now I am sold on the Golds. Thanks for any info.

Mike
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/sparkplugs.html

[ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: Mike's 96 Intrepid ]

 

[TehKing]

Contrary to popular belief, plug wires do diddly squat unless you have other ignition modification such as MSD, etc.

Thats probably why I have kept my wires stock, until spring when I do a tune up, then I might consider changing to a larger size, but for the most part, without other ignition modification larger wires don't do anything except give you something to fill in on your mod list.

 

[swartlkk]

I had the exact opposite experience with the Bosch Platinum plugs that pimped had. When I put them in my 3.5L, the idle was alittle more rough, and I felt that there wasn't the pull that was there with the old Champions. So I threw them out and put plain jane Champion copper plugs in and it ran much more smooth. It is about that time again to do the wires cause I bought a cheap set last time, so I will be putting on the Taylor Vertex Wires and Champion Gold plugs. The reason that I am going with the Taylor wires is that I may, in the near future, be putting in the MSD DIS-4 ignition that Corey has in is 'Trep.

The Champion Gold plugs can be special ordered at any NAPA. According to Corey, the part number on the Taylor Vertex Wires is TAY-74678 and the price is ~$65.00 + shipping/handling from SummitRacing.com. Currently they are backordered. I put in my order 2 days ago and I don't expect anything until the end of the month.

Gotta run,

 

[94IntrepidES]

First of all each engine's specific head design, piston crown, timing, temp range, ignition system, etc etc determines what kind of plug runs best. There is no perfect plug period. General rules, not just cause they come with it, but gm's like ac delco, chryslers tend to like champions and imports ngk. Some know how new 4.6's tend to hate any plug unless its platinum, in fact many are known to literally eat the end of a plug if it isn't platinum cause copper and platinum have different conductive properties of course. Second gen guys have no spark plug wires cause you have coil on plug, but we have the coil packs. Our system is still very efficient since it is DIS and is hard to improve upon but can be with the msd and better wires. Your right lhser, new wires won't really give you no monster or if any hp increase over stock ones, but they will always work better than cheap ass autolite or xact wires that just have terrible loss and are solid core. And heck if you can get an 8mm wire for the same cost as cheap ones from advance why not? You have to get a wire that isn't solid core for the msd to work.

Also sorry if i gave the wrong impression on the torque managament system. Yes I understand about the torque convertor completely or as chrysler would say for this tranny the torque convertor clutch. Though torque management is used when cold to change fuel injector pulse, etc to change that load. Of course depending on where you have the gear selector placed depends on torque convertor being operational. For most of us in D or overdrive, the torque convertor is operational in third or overdrive only. My buddy in his v8 sho can tell you all about his fun. On his second tranny he was driving he watched his rpms climb knowing his torq. conv. was going south and then boom smoke and fluid everywhere and he limped home on his 10,000 mile tranny. Took it to ford so they could say they could not replicate the problem and to not race it even though he was just driving home. So knowing damn well it was going to do it again he had his friend following him home to a dealer he wanted to service the car, never made it. While doing 3.5k to 4k rpms on I-81 he knew it was a matter of time, sounded good he said with the borla exhaust. Then just like NASCAR he said boom huge cloud of smoke coming out he pulled off to a gas station and ford picked it up and took two weeks plus putting tranny number three in for him. Lady at the gas station said she thought he was on fire with all that smoke and he said his car smelt like ass for a while. Fluid was all over the sides and back of his car where it came out of the seals and anywhere else it could.

 

[Intrepid _96_35L]

Wow...technical, but I guess I asked for it, thanks for the details.

So how are the taylor wirers for wear, I've heard that these and other high performance wirers can wear excessively fast, like in half the time of factory wirers. Any truth to this.

Also about the MSD, how long have you had it on your car 94IntrepidES, any problems? And whats that about gapping the plugs differently.
<<I run champion gold plugs too but need to close the gap down some on them since on high speeds I notice I am burning the fuel off a tad too fast. There is a set rule or standard of how to gap plugs with this system and based on compression.>>

How high a speed are you talking about, is it high speeds or high RPMs. Is this harmful to the car, or does it just take away the performance slightly. And can anyone tell me where to find the previously mentioned rule for how to gap the plugs.

Also is it hard to install for someone who hasn't really worked with cars. I'd probably end up doing it myself as I doubt I could get any of the local garages to install it. I don't know whats with people in my area but I've had 3 garags refuse to do my exhaust. They say they are "saving me from destroying my car" as exchanging the stock muffler and resonator for a muffler such as a flowmaster or dynomax for example "will quickly burn up some part of the engine from lack of backpressure." (I think they said it was the piston rings, or the pistons, or some kind of ring, I can't remember now I didn't really listen to them because I didn't think it was true)
I've never heard of this happing to our cars from this type of mod but they insist and actually refused to do the work!!

 

[94IntrepidES]

Performance wires, hence the name performance, tend to last longer than any cheap ass wires from some parts store. The mopar wires are really nice but expensive as a mofo. Plus the taylors are a tad larger, 8mm. You don't need to worry about gap changes since your stock just keep it. But there is a general gap recommendations for cars based on compression when running an aftermarket ignition system. A rough guide for this is as follows:

Compression: Spark Plug Gap:
up to 10.5:1 .050-.060
10.5:1 to 13:1 .040-.050
Above 13 .035-.045

Ok the whole thing about install. As I said before to others I'll say it here again, in fact I used this in an email to someone today hehe.

Of course you need the DIS-4 unit, and the two 8912 tach adaptors and you need to ask for the harness that makes it easier. They give you one that you can use the adaptors with just as easy but this other harness is a short piece that goes on right by the dis-4 and makes it a tad nicer. Only reason I have it is cause when MSD and I were working on this install they thought I wouldn't need adaptors. Then after install I got a check engine light and the pcm thought I had no ignition. So they sent me the adaptors free of charge and the cheater harness since i was wired in already. I doubt honestly they will give it to you and to be frank if my system wasn't wired already i wouldn't have used it since that would allow me to take the big harness and roll it up by the dis-4 and use the adaptors to run to the coil packs. So you have to hook all of that up and then splice into the wiring for the coils. Have to get connected to the three ignition channel wires and the 12v ignition source which is all in there. The instructions pretty much help you do it just have to get to our wiring specifically. Also you can't fit the dis-4 without removing the air box and some new intake unless you want to go way radical on install.

The whole miss thing is at high rpms under wot. I got the plugs right at .050 and its a tad too much. Getting a slight hesitation/high speed miss as most know it. Just gotta close the gap to about .045 or at least below .050 to an extent. Thats one reason I'm installing the air/fuel meter to get it perfect, well at least close can't be too perfect with a meter but you can get better than before.

Ok the exhaust thing. They are thinking if you go too weak on backpressure you will "lean out" and burn your valves. I've never seen an exhaust shop that won't do any mod especially when they get paid cause its not their problem. As long as you don't go straight pipe, no cats you'll be fine.

[ February 06, 2002: Message edited by: 94IntrepidES ]

 

[Marcus]

Yeah, it's kind of weird how some shops take it upon themselves to tell you not to do something. The second-gen cars have THREE mufflers in series -- I replaced the back two mufflers under the trunk with a single Flowmaster and it's really nice! The sound is really fabulous -- of course it sounds meaner than it really is, but that's okay. There's still one factory muffler up front under the front floorboard in what would otherwise be the transmission/driveshaft tunnel -- I'd like to replace that one with another Flowmaster, but it'll be a little harder to find since it's two 2.5" inlets and one 2.5" outlet. Still be two mufflers in series but that's probably the best thing for keeping interior resonance to a minimum.

 

[swartlkk]

Um... That's not a muffler behind the tranny... That's your 3rd Catalytic Converter. Yeah, that's right your 3rd one!!!

Do not replace that with a flowmaster muffler!!!

 

[Djnrg]

So does the torque managemnent system tone down the power of the engine when it detects too much torque (I remember someone saying this a while ago) or is that a bunch of B.S.??? And if I do install a switch on the torque management wire, will I notice any more power at WOT, will my shifts be smoother, and will I lose less power? I have a shift kit installed on my tranny, which I absolutely love, but I still don't want the car to take forever to shift if I am only gaining a bit of power, or smotheness between shifts...

Thanks..

 

[cheers007]

Has anyone put a MSD DIS-4 on a 3.3L? I would like to know if it is actually worth the money before putting it in my car. I wonder if the ignition system controlls the stock rev limit because MSD states that the red box can be programmed with 2 rev limits, indicating the rev limit is controlled by ignition system rather than ECU. I had my ECU upgraded and my rev limit is exactly the same, so that's why I'm guessing rev limit is not in the computer, but in the ignition. Anyone has or knows someone who has the DIS-4 on their 3.3L?

 

[SoundGorillaz]

I would likt to know about the 3.3L engine too

 

[gr8crash]

And if I do install a switch on the torque management wire, will I notice any more power at WOT, will my shifts be smoother, and will I lose less power?

i already have that, is it a monetary switch tht bypasses the TM wire in L gear range and only then, then 1-2 , 2-3 shifts really firm up can even chirp the tires ;-)

 

[Hypnos]

This thread is 10 months old.

Could cuting out the tm damage the engine? Why did you use momentary?

I'm really interested in this..I love the torque these things have. I would sell my soul for more...

 

[ACR]

I used magnecor 8.5 millimeter spark plug wire . They do very good job.(but they are expensive)
for the spark plug i used bosh 9hrc model. Is not platinum plugs.
Is the model they recommand on mopar performance for the dodge viper. And the 3.5 and the 8 liters have the same plugs.
They go very weel I have no problems for the cold start. (-20 c)

 

[CptMatt]

I installed Champion Premium Golds in my Vision w/3.5L but still had a rough idle and a check engine light. The dealership is trying to tell me that the plugs I put in are the wrong ones.

What is the Champion Premium Gold part number for the plugs?