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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Well today I've done the most I've ever done with taking apart an engine... haha... Took off the valve covers. Well, their is some sludge build up but its not horrible. My pops said he's seen worse. He also said that the cam lobes are worn but not worn out... all my spark plugs look good except one, which might be just a bad coil pack hopefully... cause yeah, the car does have 99k on it so...

he also said the chain appeared to be in good condition, not worn down etc. I mentioned in a prior post if anyones been following thats reading this that my last oil change the oil was kinda watery (some say probably contributed to waterpump freezing up etc.) well we drained the radiator and coolant and it was nice an green, no oil. So theres no oil in the antifreeze.... not sure exactly waht that means but I got my pops helpin me or at least tellin me what to do along the way... so i take yall advice and he oversees me... im a mechanic in the making! lol... jk..

Original thread: Midas Says I Need a New Engine

Check the pics:

Right Side Valve Cover Inside:


Left Side Valve Cover Inside:


The pictures of the cam shafts are too big to post in this message so I made links to them below, I made em that way so you guys could see the sludge build up. The right side is worse then the left. But do you think I can do the timing chain kit with waterpump and get back and forth to work for a few more months or so? Like I've been saying... I'm trying to buy time to save for a 3.2L or 3.5L plus conversion kit etc.... I'm dropping the oil pan tomorrow so I'll have pictures of that as well... Thanks!

Right side cam shaft etc. 1.3 Mb

Left side cam shaft etc. 1.1 Mb

Both cam shafts 1.4 Mb


UPDATE:

Ok got the harmonic balancer off and cover. I posted some pics below. Man my moms boyfriend did lie to me! He said he got out as many parts as he could?! Well I was looking right into the oil pan after I drained it (pics are before drain) and theres tons of little debris and parts of the little side tensioner that originally snapped... What does that tell me? He didn't even drop the oil pan!!! Whata buster... anyway... I got the oil pan all unhooked but no mater how much I manuevered it it just couldnt get through... I think the cars jacked up too high and the bottom bar is whats in the way... I'm gonna drop the car tomorrow and that should move that bar and give me clearence... cause seriously... I got the front of the car on jackstands and.... that oil pan will not get through no matter what... its stuck on the front frame and back bar. I think its the stabalizer bar...

You can see how LOOSE the timing chain is... It must have jumped? Plus you can see the groves in the waterpump... the one you can see is the worst. The other side of the waterpump is not bad and the oil pump has some chipped away as well... i think thats what my moms boyfriend (that works at midas) was talking about for filings being in the engine? anyway... What do ya think?!





UPDATE 2:

I got the oil pan off and there were lots of little debris from the small tensioner that broke. Well I looked in the oil screen return and that was almost full of crap too. Heres a pic:



Now... I'm getting confused because so many people keep saying flush with this and that... anyhow... what should I use to flush through the return screen and what should I use to clean out the oil pan? I have a compressor in the garage so I was thinking maybe water and compress it dry really good... but I dunno... what do you think?

Also I forgot to take pictures but the timing chain does look like it jumped a tooth. My pops lined up all the marks and he said that from the feel of it it doesnt feel like the valves got bent at all. He said you'd be able to tell when turning it, something about it hiting a piston and being very difficult to turn? (i dunno). Also he said that usually it takes jumping a few teeth for valves to bend... hopefully thats correct. So yeah, the timnig chain was off mark by one link/tooth...

Now my last question... I'm looking at the valves and I'm finding more and more little debris here and there... I was thinking of pouring oil on it and the timing chain but I already got the front cover off so oil would pour everywhere I think... any suggestions? I was thinking of using a shop vac and trying to suck up as much as I could see, sound like a plan or what?

Thanks for all the help in advance...

UPDATE 3:
(nevermind just flushed it with water... figure it'll have like 2 weeks to dry before i put in the timing chain etc anyway... plus ill run the air compressor on it really good...)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
chujz said:
cannt believe this is trep engine
Why are you saying that? That doesn't really help....You think its bad? Ok? What? To me, it doesn't look so bad and I think I could get some miles out of it still... if this is what it looks like at 100k then... i got a lil more left so i can save up for a new engine...
 

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Sounds like Midas is trying to stick it to you.
I've got 190K on mine and it's running like a champ.
My suspension is kicking my arse but that's a testament of the roads I drive and how I drive.
 
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From looking at those pics it looks like the engine has been taken care of. Without being able to look closer, everything looks normal to me. I really don't see any sludge. All I see is some black crusty stuff on the inside of the valve covers which is just baked oil not sludge. Why again did Midas say you needed a new engine? I must have missed that thread.
 

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Athough you did not find any oil in your anti-freeze. Your first post in the Midas thread says that your oil seemed watery. If you get anti-freeze in the oil, your oil will lose a lot of it's lubricating properties. Possibly enough to cause damage to your crank shaft journals and connecting rod bearings. if you did not hear anything like a rod knock when it was still running then it's probably ok. Have you had any mysterious loss of coolant before it died???
 

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That looks pretty clean for a 2.7, at least well taken care of. Check out this pic of one that was in the old shop a year ago:




Thats nasty. If memory serves, this sucker only had about 55K on it. I didnt read your Midas thread, but the way it sounds, and the way your engine looks, Midas was trying to pull a fast one. I would throw on a new water pump, timing chain and guides, just to be safe after hearing about the "watery oil". These are common 2.7 failures. As long as she didnt knock, you should be good to go after that.
 

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I would agree with 32. If I were you I would replace the parts you know are bad. Get some el cheapo oil, change the oil and let it idle or drive it around town for about half an hour. Let it cool off add a can of engine flush follow directions on bottle. Fill-up with el cheapo oil again and this time add can of CD-2 engine cleaner. Drive it for 2 weeks and change the oil again. Fillup with your regular oil, but throw a quart of synthetic in there (do not overfill). You oil will look like smut for probably three oil changes, but it should start to get really clean.

I would recommend if the car runs good at this point to put it on at least a synthetic blend diet. If you can afford it go full synthetic. You can easily get 6000 miles between changes on synthetic so that sort of buffers the cost a bit.

Anyways if it is not making any funny noises after that first or second oil change you should be fine. I would suggest doing something to start cleaning it up immediately though. If you get it clean and get another 20k miles out for no more then the cost of a water pump, timing chain, and a few oil changes you will be far better then if you drop your cash on it now. Plus if you do have to rebuild you will have already bought some of the parts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
jedgxe said:
Athough you did not find any oil in your anti-freeze. Your first post in the Midas thread says that your oil seemed watery. If you get anti-freeze in the oil, your oil will lose a lot of it's lubricating properties. Possibly enough to cause damage to your crank shaft journals and connecting rod bearings. if you did not hear anything like a rod knock when it was still running then it's probably ok. Have you had any mysterious loss of coolant before it died???
Neither of each... only thing is oil seemed a bit watery when we did the oil change plus it was low a quart... the only thing is i dont know when its last oil change was before that cause ive really only had the car for 3k miles! I should have changed the oil right away and done the 100k maintenance but for some reason I thought I could wait till I was closer to 100k... guess I was wrong...
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
froggy81500 said:
All I see is some black crusty stuff on the inside of the valve covers which is just baked oil not sludge.
Yeah that stuff is on there... whatever that black crusty stuff is... cause it looks as if you could whip it away with your finger but its not budging that easily... in fact i could barely get any off...
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
mrlullabye said:
Accidently pouring oil in a spark plug tube $Priceless
Whoa... seriously... what would that do? Wouldnt that cause like... the engine to blow up? I dunno...

But thanks for your directions MrLullabye... definitely... so you think that'll clean things up pretty good ey? I'll definitely give it a try... droppin the oil pan tomorrow and pouring oil over the cam shafts etc to see if i can get any debris to come out plus cleaning the oil pans filter and doing a coolant flush... then onto the timing chain kit & waterpump...

anyone know if them timing chain kits come with directions for timing?
 

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How long did it take for you get the valve covers off ?

Thanks for the pics.

In response to some of the posts here :

1) There's 'enough' sludge present in that engine. It isn't terrible - but it isn't great.

2) This is high temperature sludge caused by oxidation and shearing. There's also plenty of varnish. The oil change intervals in this engine may been too long, and the oil quality may have been poor (or both). At the very least, use oil that meets Chrysler Material Spec MS6395. Not all dino oils meet this spec. Most synthetics do.

3) The oil supply and return passages in the heads are notoriously small. Running a 15 minute engine flush in this thing is asking for trouble. The quick solvent flushes remove deposits fairly quickly but there is the real danger of moving deposits and plugging oil passages. If that happens, you'll have more than a timing chain and water pump to replace. In this particular engine, the solvent type flushes are a crap shoot.

4) If you get a timing chain kit, make sure it comes with the correct style of Main Tensioner. There are 2 different styles.
 

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Ive seen a lot worse under the valve covers. that really doesn't look that bad.
If you are going to put a water pump on anyway.don't drop the oil pan yet. Pull the front cover off then remove the oil drain plug and put a pan under it. Then you can clean the top of the engine and the front(behind the front cover) with a solvent and scrape off any stubborn crud and flush everything from the top down into the pan, then pour it down each oil drainback passage in the head to make sure they are clear. then remove the pan last and clean it and the oil pickup screen. This will let you clean most of the hardened crud out, keep it from floating up into the oil pick up tube so it won't be circulated into the oil system and make a lot less mess.

I would not use any engine flush products that run through the engine, they will just carry the loose pieces of crud into the oil pump, oil galleys and bearings.
As long as there were no other noises when it was running or broken internal parts, from the pictures it looks like you should be able to clean it up and put it back together.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
va3ux said:
How long did it take for you get the valve covers off ?
Probably about an hour and a half. Mainly cause I never have done anything like this so I wanted to make sure I was being careful not to break anything. Actually it might have been 2 hours. The valve covers were a breeze to get off. It was the top air distributor thing that was a little tricky for me cause I wasnt sure about hoses etc.
1) There's 'enough' sludge present in that engine. It isn't terrible - but it isn't great.
Aggreed.
This is high temperature sludge caused by oxidation and shearing. There's also plenty of varnish. The oil change intervals in this engine may been too long, and the oil quality may have been poor (or both). At the very least, use oil that meets Chrysler Material Spec MS6395. Not all dino oils meet this spec. Most synthetics do.
Got a brand in mind? The closest store to me is Checker and the only synthetic they had was Gastrol GTX. When i last did an oil change thats what i bought... I don't remember if it was a synthetic blend or purely synthetic... I do remember it came out to like $45-$50 though and I was like whoa. haha.
3) Running a 15 minute engine flush in this thing is asking for trouble.
Im not sure exactly what you mean. Could you elaborate? So pouring oil on top of this stuff and trying to remove debris for longer then 15 minutes could be asking for trouble? I'm kinda confused there because mrlullabye mrlullabye said to use an engine flush and just follow the directions... so your saying make sure its not longer then 15 minutes?
If you get a timing chain kit, make sure it comes with the correct style of Main Tensioner. There are 2 different styles.
One more time for clarification please. How do I know which is the correct style if two are sold? All I usually do is tell checker or auto zone etc. my cars year make and engine and they tell me so... pics would be fantastic if you might care to find any online?

Thanks so much!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
lextrep said:
Then you can clean the top of the engine and the front(behind the front cover) with a solvent and scrape off any stubborn crud and flush everything from the top down into the pan, then pour it down each oil drainback passage in the head to make sure they are clear. then remove the pan last and clean it and the oil pickup screen. This will let you clean most of the hardened crud out, keep it from floating up into the oil pick up tube so it won't be circulated into the oil system and make a lot less mess.
Can you please elaborate on this process... I know I'm asking a lot of questions here I'm sorry... I'm just kinda at roads end here doing things myself with my pops oversight when i can get em to come out to the garage...

So what kind of solvent? And use a small wire brush or? Also... did you mean when I'm done scraping crud to then pour this solvent on the cams and valves and down the timing chain slot so it drains to the bottom of the engine?

What about mrlullabyes instructions after the fix to use any engine flush liquid etc.? Theres part of where my confusion comes in as well cause va3ux said not to run and engine flush for longer then 15 minutes? So just make sure i get an engine flush which has directions to only flush for like 10 or less minutes or what?

Sorry for all the questions, again, I hope ya'll will bear with me a little longer here! :(
 

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Looking good, could use a little cleaning but it's normal.

That amount of buildup is quite OK for any engine with 100000 miles on it. It looks as if it has been taken care of and will serve you well if fitted with a new chain kit and tensioner.

I would run a gentle engine flush like Seafoam Motor Treatment, this isn't nearly as harsh as other flushes that are basically kerosene. Run the engine with normal oil for a couple of days before doing the flush and then add seafoam if it sounds OK, if it's making new or much louder bad sounding noises, do not flush it.

Might as well do plugs while your in there, you're due for a set. Use NGK, Nippondenso or Champion Double Platinum.
 

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ThaArtist said:
Can you please elaborate on this process... I know I'm asking a lot of questions here I'm sorry... I'm just kinda at roads end here doing things myself with my pops oversight when i can get em to come out to the garage...

So what kind of solvent? And use a small wire brush or? Also... did you mean when I'm done scraping crud to then pour this solvent on the cams and valves and down the timing chain slot so it drains to the bottom of the engine?

What about mrlullabyes instructions after the fix to use any engine flush liquid etc.? Theres part of where my confusion comes in as well cause va3ux said not to run and engine flush for longer then 15 minutes? So just make sure i get an engine flush which has directions to only flush for like 10 or less minutes or what?

Sorry for all the questions, again, I hope ya'll will bear with me a little longer here! :(
Engine flushes are made to be poured into the engine, then the engine is ran for 10min or so and it is drained out with the oil. This is supposed to "dissolve" the gunk in the engine and then it drains out with the old oil. This process also distributes this mixture of oil, flush solvent and crud through you engine oiling system (oil pump, filter, bearings, etc.) where it can do damage. While an engine flush in a can might be the best alternative if you don't want to take the engine apart. You will have enough taken apart so that you will have all of the parts that usually collect the crud exposed where you can carefully scrape them off and clean them with a solvent like mineral spirits flush them out the pan then remove the pan and clean it. This way you remove most of the crud and throw it away so it cant circulate in the engine.
After you are done cleaning it pour oil all over the moving parts and put it back together. Fill it with oil then run it a few hundred miles and change the oil and filter again.
 

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There is a manual somewhere on this site in PDF format that will give you the information you need for setting up the timing.

The sludge doesn't look all that bad considering the mileage. You may want to replace the valve seals since you are already in there - at that mileage they are usually shot which means you will be using a quart about every 1500 miles.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
jgams said:
There is a manual somewhere on this site in PDF format that will give you the information you need for setting up the timing.
yeah im gonna need to get ahold of something... I bought the book today so it should be in there. We'll see.

I was using a cheaper harmonica balancer puller today and that bad boy wouldnt come off for nothin! So once I seen in the book that they use a more heavy duty one I went out and bought one... should be able to get that front plate off tomorrow and be able to get the chain, tensioners, and waterpump out hopefully...
 
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