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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi Folks,
It took over a year to put a 2,7 engine together again after it spun a rod bearing. It won't start and I'm getting the feeling that it's something very basic. I've done the timing chain thing so many times I seriously doubt that's the issue. But I'll dig into it again if necessary. Here's what's known. New battery (didn't keep the original charged like I should have), coils and injectors pass ohm check. It will fire for a second w/starting fluid and I used fuel stabilizer on a 3/4 tank of gas when I got the distinct impression this was going to take awhile Disconnected the fuel line at the tank flex line and cycled the key a few times. Fuel pump worked fine and the collected the fuel and after a day no visible separation or hint of water. Continuity check for coils, injectors, and every sensor I could think of, check good at the PCM connector. All the hoses and vacuum lines are sound, still flexible and connected.
The original 2001 block was damaged during the rod bearing repair and replaced with a 2000 block, pistons, heads etc. (longblock). The original 2001 flexplate and timing assembly were switched over because the cam gear and flexplate slots weren't identical between the 2000 and the 2001. Both ignitions are the same.
So I guess I'm asking can anyone think of something I'm missing or should check?
Thanks again of time for any input.

BTW the original engine was running just fine and dandy before the rod knock started. And as I've written before (probably many times) I stopped the engine immediately and had it towed home.
 

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A few things to try:
Disconnect main harness connectors - like TCM and PCM connectors and the two rectangular connectors next to brake booster - IIRC, C106 and C107 - re-mate, making sure fully mated. Check fuses with ohmmeter, especially ones for PCM, ASR, and ignition coils and fuel injectors. Verify no engine harness wires pinched/shorted to ground. Verify 5 volt sensor bus with volt meter. Remove and re-install ASR.

Check for codes.

Using the original 2001 engine harness?

Disconnect the a.c. pressure transducer and the cam position sensor and see if it will fire up. Both have been known to fail, pulling down the PCM 5 volt sensor power bus. Ignition will fire using only the crank position sensor (with cam position sensor disconnected) up to something like 2500 rpm. After that, I hate to suggest throwing parts at it, but you could try replacing cam position sensor and crank position sensor (from dealer - aftermarket parts not recommended for those.)
 

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the way fuel is nowadays, i'd start with a fresh tank of fuel too.
especially if it had any ethanol in it.
maybe try injecting fresh gas through a squirt bottle through a vacuum line.
if you have spark, you have timing and should have fuel.
also, i don't know if it can be done, but are any injector/coil leads on the wrong side?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
THANK YOU PEVA and THANK YOU YEVRAH. I've done what you both suggested except for a fresh tank of fuel. I only wish I could but it's just not practical. However, that feeling I'm getting is reinforced more and more everytime I shoot some starting fluid in the TB. It seems to be saying "heh, I'm not getting any gas" because it fires up readily with the fluid. SOOOOO I'm going to take the intake stuff off again and make sure gas is (or isn't ) getting to, and delivered by, the injectors
I'll advise what I find.
Thanks Again
 

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Have you verified the Fuel Injectors have power? I believe the the Ignition Coils and Fuel Injectors have the same power source and fuse.


Have you turned the ignition to ON but not start and heard the Fuel Pump Prime?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
SUCCESS! It started, is quiet and just needs to be brought up to temp. Man', am I glad you guys are still here. I was talking to my brothers on the phone and one said, "heck we used to just check the float bowl for gas" and then I'm thinking that gas has been in the injectors for more than a year, could they be coked up? SO I took each one thru the jury-rigged injector cleaner thing I concocted until they sprayed clear. They were all stuck. Lesson to self; clean the injectors if they have been sitting for awhile.
Oh, I got a code 108 (the only code thru all this, sorry I didn't mention that) so I've got to check the MAP sensor. No big deal comparably .
Thanks again everyone for your input. It kept me looking in the right place.
 

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Good information - and glad you figured out the problem and the fix! Makes total sense - after you know the answer. 👍
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
My continuing dilemma w/the engine has taken a weird turn. It starts fine and I drove it around the block until it warmed to normal temp. I noted a "lifter" noise coming from the area of the #5 cylinder of the valve cover so I took off the plenum and valve cover to look-see and decided I'd change the lash adjusters with known good ones I have. However, while looking into the intake for the #5 cylinder through the lower plenum I saw what looked like a half inch deep puddle of something sitting on top of the closed valves. It turned out to be gasoline partially filling the valve pockets. Since it can only come from the injector, and they were all checked voltage wise anyway, I'm gonna' change it with another I have. Anyone heard of that?
 

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sometimes injectors leak and all reserve pressure in the system can drain through them.
can cause starting problems as well.
usually hard starting when hot, since it's flooded.
 

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Yep. Injector may be "dirty" so pintle is sticking open or a piece of "trash" is preventing the pintle from fully sealing off against its seat. Sometimes running Sea Foam or Techron thru a couple of tanks of fuel will fix it. Other times, a bench cleaning or replacement of the injector is needed.

Sometimes you will get difficult starting from this problem because the fuel rail gets partially or fully drained (and filled with air) so the other cylinders get no fuel until the fuel pump runs long enough to fill and pressurize the rail, and the cylinder or cylinders with the leaking injector(s) is/are flooded.

It may not start because when you turn the key, the fuel pump only runs a second or two and then shuts off until the PCM detects that the engine is running. That one or two second pump run time may not be enough to pressurize the rail. The work-around to get it started is to cycle the key on and off two or three times (pausing two or three seconds between key positions) so the pump runs enough to pressurize the rail before cranking. When it does start after cycling the key like that, it will miss and sputter for a few seconds as air is purged from the rail and the raw fuel in the flooded cylinder(s) blows thru and out the exhaust, and then it will smooth out. (You will probably smell raw gas from the exhaust right after that too.) Of course having raw fuel sitting in a cylinder washes the oil film down the cylinder and into the oil pan - not catastrophic, but not good for the engine if not corrected.
 
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Hi Ron!
 

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Hi Bill...fellow "Night Owl" !
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I transplanted a new #5 injector and #1 injector connector (the tab broke off) and a new idle control valve. All is good now as far as starting. Fires up as quick as before now and idles quietly. HOWEVER, the tranny is being bad. Could it require a "quick learn" from being unpowered for so long? I've got codes 700 (of course), 736 and 732. But they've gone away after the last short test drive. As I've mentioned before I'm pretty rural, 32 miles from town and 40 to the closest Dodge dealership.
It was hesitant to go into reverse after putting the lever in R and hesitates to go forward sometimes when put in D. I'll slow to turn and it won't engage again for a couple seconds. I'm going real easy on the gas petal giving it just enough for the shift to engage without making it "clunk". It seems if I put it low or second it kinda' responds better, I think. Nothing really consistent yet. It was working perfectly before, still has no leaks. I did change the filter and added 5 quarts of +4 to bring it up to the "cold" fill mark. After driving it last week "around the block" for it to come up to temp the tranny stick showed it was in the range of the "hot" gap between the holes.
I might also say I've only driven it less that 1/2 mile. It just has too many loose ends to secure before I take it further.
So I think the questions are; does it definitely need a "Quick Learn"? Or does it need to be driven more? Or both.
Thanks to All

BTW It sure feels a lot nicer than my truck. I guess that's why we like them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Tranny still not behaving. It was perfect before. I called the dealer shop and was told the tranny shouldn't need a "quick learn" because it doesn't lose it's memory.
My only other thought is the torque converter. I took it off and stood it upright so I could inspect the seal behind it. When I reinstalled it I turned it so the flats would line up w/ the tranny pump. Problem may be related to the way it slid back. The "check" for proper installation is to measure from the bell housing mating surface to the flat of the converter bolt thread thingy welded on the converter. You should see 1/2 inch. But mine measured closer to an inch. In fact, when turning the first converter bolt it drew the converter forward to take up the "slack" of about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch.
Anyone have a clue? Fluid is good, right on the mark. It just won't go into gear when selected without giving it some RPM's and it eventually goes into gear but with a mild as can be "clunk". And I don't want to do that very much anymore. If I have to take the engine out again that's fine. It'll go a hell of a lot faster the second time.
As Always, Thank You All
 

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could be filter wasn't seated quite right and takes a bit to get fluid flow.
measurement is more a minimum to be sure your engaged in the pump.
i'd start there and work my way to more complicated possibilities.
maybe even sticky apply pistons from sitting.
try maybe even a little lucas trans fix and see if it changes anything before ripping it out again.
put a few miles and duty cycles through it first.
 

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I can think of one possible cause that is unusual to happen with a transmission filter change, but will definitely cause the problem if it is what happened: Some Chrysler transmissions take a filter that is slightly different, and dealer parts guys have been known to sell people that other filter instead if the correct one for our cars - maybe because they sell more of the other filter and didn't realize there were two different ones for different vehicles - not really sure - that's just a guess as to why this happens. Anyway, I was warned about this years ago on a Chrysler newsgroup, and thought people were making it up or didn't know what they were talking about because it sounded a little far-fetched, but dang if it didn't happen to me a few months later when I did my first filter change.

The incorrect filter is very similar in size, but is shaped slightly differently than the correct filter, and will fit into the filter cavity in the transmission, but will be a little tight because of the slightly different shape. If you know about this problem, the slightly tight fit can tip you off that you have the wrong filter, otherwise you might not give it a second thought. Fortunately for me, when I replaced my filter, I noticed the tight fit, and remembered the warning from the newsgroup, and checked the part number and discovered that it indeed was the wrong one before putting the pan on and filling it back up with fluid. Now that I know this problem is real, I would be checking the part number that they sold me before starting the replacement.

BUT if you didn't know about this problem and went ahead and installed the wrong filter and put the pan back on and filled it back up with fluid, you'd have problems with the transmission not working right because the other difference between the two filters is that the filter nipple that plugs into the fluid pump inlet is shorter than the nipple of the correct filter - I forget by how much - maybe 1/4" or thereabouts. The result of putting the wrong filter in would be that filter nipple would not properly seal to the pump inlet, and the pump would be sucking in air and either no or very little fluid, so the tranny would work very poorly or not at all.

I'm not saying that this is definitely your problem, but figured that I had better mention it in case it is. I don't know if you bought your filter from a dealer or from aftermarket, but I assume that this problem would be more likely to happen if purchased from a dealer rather than from aftermarket because aftermarket is likely to actually look it up and not confuse the two filters commonly used on different Chryslers and grab the wrong one off the shelf out of habit.
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Peva and Yevrah,
THANK YOU for your input. I try not to use this site too much and only when I have a definable and hard problem. I could get spoiled. But I also learn a hell of a lot from people who know what they're talking about. Having gone to many, many sites for part numbers, part locations and other 2.7 related stuff I've run across lots and lots of misinformation and people who obviously don't have the slightest idea what they're talking about. That together with Dodge's lack of published knowledge about their products it's no wonder people get crossed up. I don't think I could ever get the timing chain back on correctly if I followed the directions provided by half the people who profess to know what they're writing about. And some folks end up paying for bad or confusing info from sites that charge for just repeating what the FSM says.
Anyway, it looks like the pan is coming off first but not before I disconnect one of the cooling lines at the radiator. That will at least tell me if the tranny pump is engaged. I DID have and issue with the clips for the tranny filter. Only because it was the first time I've changed tranny fluid and a filter. I didn't even see the clips until I pulled hard enough to get the old filter down. I thought I got the new one in correctly but there could easily be a clip or two that got mangled just enough to not provide a good seal at the pick-up.

When I come across anything worth noting I'll put in here.
THANKS AGAIN you guys!
Aerofxr.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
It's up and running fine! If I didn't read Yav and Peva's posts I don't know if I'd of pulled the tranny pan or just yank the engine out to look at the converter. BUT when I did drop the pan, after putting at least 4 qts. of +4 fluid in, it was empty except for the fluid coating the pan of course. I had used a hand powered transfer pump, curtesy of HF, and only about a quart came out before sucking air. I then put in three quarts with the pan back up and took it out for a shake down and it's doing fine. I suppose it should after the time I put into it.
For what it's worth, if you have the 42LE tranny , and you will with the 2.7, and the pan has been off for any length of time it might drain out a lot of residual that normally sits quietly in the tranny during a typical fluid/filter change. Did I see anything that leaked out to give me a clue? No, I had so much speedy dry under the car it could have soaked up a gallon and I wouldn't known.
Before I leave this site until the next drama I just want to thank everyone who gave their two cents. Believe me, after reviewing every site on the WEB that has anything to do with Intrepid's and 2.7 engines I've concluded the ONLY good source of knowledge is right here on this site.
Good Luck and Health to All
 
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