[mnitetrain]

3. At the end of April, I needed an oil change. I took it to the place I usually go. They drain my oil, and when I tell them I want advance/high mileage synthetic, they say all they have is regular. I don't have time for them to go get some from Wal mart, so I let them put it in thinking "I usually change mine at 2500 miles or so, but with this oil, I do it in 1250." The reason I change it at 2500 is because if coolant is getting into the engine oil, then it makes sense to change the oil more often than so that the viscosity doesn't get thrown off. I do it myself now with name brand oil and filter. About 1200 to 1400 miles later, I start my car and it runs like ****. engine wobbles so bad It is shaking the car. I'm not too far from home, so I grind it out. Get home, check oil, find chocolate milk. Flush the system, change the oil (letting it drain forever), and start it up. It runs a little rough at first, but it hasn't caused any problems. No milky stuff, oil leaked due to oil pressure sensor (which was changed), but l check under the hood everyday and never let it get below 1/2 quart short marker. I have no idea what the hell happened that day, because it ran fine the night before. I honestly think someone poured whatever into the engine. I kicked myself for allowing regular oil, but I honestly didn't have time because I couldn't miss class

Does the oil still have the chocolate milk look?? Wonder if there might be a failure in radiator/ oil cooler??

How long have you driven with milky oil?? Lower end damage may already be done.

B4 you spend a lot of money on fixing I'd suggest you detail and diagnose ALL the problems. Would be pointless to spends hundreds chasing small things only to get the dreaded knock of death.

Might consider engine swap 2.7>3.2/3.5 put even that is not directly plug and play or cheap.

 

[supertramp63]

Im not getting an engine swap, honestly. I mean, I might as well do the water pump job.

No, no chocolate milk color. That was on May 17th, I've done 3 or 4 oil changes since, over about 10k miles, and no choclate milk color. This wasn't just a little bit, either. I mean,I drained it and the whole thing was milky. My dad didn't have the heart to tell me it was something bad. This is when I found out about the oil sludge problems. I had thought I knew about them, but my research just said that it was due to a poorly designed engine, and your safe with synthetic changes every 3k miles.

I agree with trying to diagnose all my problems. This housing unit I've known about, because I've had coolant levels dropping (very slowly) and was afraid it was going into engine until I saw it seeping out the side of the housing unit. It wasn't a lot, it never got hot, and I really never had to add much more coolant. I haven't added any in a while because I was testing it to see where it's at, spec wise. Quick tune up? Weekend project? Burn it? I'm paranoid about just unscrewing things and taking them apart on them, because I see way too many people make the diagnosis of the most common problem, and it end up either not being that or they botch the repair.

Between Mid may and the beginning of August, I drove with the radio off, no AC (was broke), just listening, waiting for my engine to break. Every odd noise sent a shiver down my spine. Finally in August I thought about getting under it, and looking around. I spent several hours confused because 1) never been further than the oil filter and 2) I was using a 2002 repair book. Wanted to drop the oil pan and just look into it to see what the condition was. But I didn't see anything that would point to that, and not wanting to mess it up, I just left it alone. I want to do the water pump job, but I can't. Above my head, and my older brother and dad don't have the time to help (they are car guys).

I don't want to throw money into it if it's broke broke, but if it's just a few repairs (less than 100 ish) that's fine.

So from here, I think I'll take the top off and have a look. Hopefully, I just need a new housing unit. Also, that http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Genuine-OE...683?nav=SEARCH part, says "With thermostat housing." Did they move the thermostat up to the top housing unit? Or does it include an unpictured thermostat housing unit for the bottom?

 

[bh1992]

You'd have to ask the seller if it includes any other items but I'd guess it's just poor labeling because that is what most people would think to call it when searching for that part.

 

[peva]

...Also, that http://m.ebay.com/itm/New-Genuine-OE...683?nav=SEARCH part, says "With thermostat housing." Did they move the thermostat up to the top housing unit? Or does it include an unpictured thermostat housing unit for the bottom?

Very doubtful - that would be a nonsensical pairing of parts.

Previously I said (about the application years):

...They are confused...

I was wrong - from what you just posted (about the t-stat housing), they are clueless!! But you can't fault them for not knowing everything about every car they sell parts for when that detail is something that's a little quirky/non-traditional on these cars (even though I suspect it's also true of several other Chryslers, especially ones with this engine).

 

[supertramp63]

So I was looking things over (I can't do the project for a day or two because I have class tomorrow and Wednesday), giving myself an idea of what this project was going to consist of and what I needed. I definitely need a housing unit, a radiator cap, some more stuff, but I also figured I do the PCV. I think I actually bought that 5 or 6 months ago when I first found out about that problem (just the part, couple bucks). I noticed that the PCV part looked funny... like it had been modded to fit (this is a 2000 dodge Intrepid 2.7) this isn't how it comes, right? I went to move that black elbow to side to see the part number and it just slid off. Surely enough, It looked bad. Good mix of oil and coolant. This explains a lot. I knew it couldn't just be the housing unit. That elbow piece looks like it was cut from some random piece (maybe the old hose), and didn't have any clamps ( I took this pic after I slid it off, then put it back on for reference).

Well. So there's that.

 

[peva]

...I went to move that black elbow to side to see the part number and it just slid off. Surely enough, It looked bad. Good mix of oil and coolant. This explains a lot. I knew it couldn't just be the housing unit. That elbow piece looks like it was cut from some random piece (maybe the old hose), and didn't have any clamps ( I took this pic after I slid it off, then put it back on for reference).

Well. So there's that.

That's either not an OEM elbow or it is swelled up from exposure to oil. There are no clamps for the PCV hose connections - they are properly sized to fit the PCV valve and the heat exchanger without clamps - none needed since there is no pressure.

Are you saying you're seeing coolant inside the PCV hoses?

Is there something strange looking about the PCV valve itself, or were you referring solely to that hose (you said 'the PCV part looked funny')?

You may find this previously-posted info. helpful (from post no. 6 here: http://www.dodgeintrepid.net/showthread.php?t=1048241) :

For that money, you must have replaced the heat exchanger with hoses - lists for $146, about $105 from on-line discount dealers...

For future reference, you can replace just the hoses (and re-use the heat exchanger because they don't need to be replaced), but you have to be clever about it by ordering the hose for the pre-heat exchanger design and cutting the hose in 3 pieces and discarding the center section. Cost of the hose that way is under $15.

There's a second hose - the crankcase breather hose, which also is under $15. Did you replace that, because they get real bad too? It is part of the PCV system, and is just as important as the PCV hose. It connects between the passenger side valve cover and the intake tube (less than a foot long with a 90 degree bend). You might want to also replace the elbow that it plugs into in the valve cover because they get brittle and often break when you remove the old hose - shouldn't be more than $2 or $3...

EDIT: P/N for the PCV hose to cut and use with the heat exchanger is 4663961 (post no. 5: http://www.dodgeintrepid.net/showthread.php?t=568450). It is actually the part for the 3.2/3.5 engine (before the heat exchanger was added), but it works great for 2.7 as well for cutting and using with the heat exchanger.

 

[supertramp63]

Is raining outside so I can't get a good look. I said it looks weird because I was looking at an old post of yours

http://images43.fotki.com/v1324/photos/4/42816/2169829/IMG_3902b-vi.jpg

I can't get a part number off the one I have, and I see that the one you have there doesn't have clamps.

Here's a post with what looks like what I have.

http://www.dodgeintrepid.net/showthread.php?t=206161

His question is different, but see the clamp? That's what I have.

Here's you again:

http://images9.fotki.com/v183/photos/4/42816/2169829/IMG_3907c-vi.jpg

That right angle rubber hose (with the green arrow) looks like what I just pulled off the part that connects to the top of the manifold.

 

[peva]

No clamps on the PCV (air) connections. Clamps (factory spring-type) on the pressurized coolant connections.

 

[supertramp63]

Yeah, got those mixed up. Even looked right at the valve when the elbow came off.

I just cleaned out that elbow and while there was some grit, no coolant. Must have gotten cross contaminated.

 

[supertramp63]

I took off the PCV valve and looked at the coolant tank cap, too. The PCV, valve rattled when I shook it, so I don't think that is a good sign. The cap looked rusted and also rattled, too.

 

[KxWarrior]

A PCV rattling is a good sign, it means it's not filled with oil. Can't really tell with a cap, unless it's just not holding pressure in your system. However with your housing leaking, you won't be able to determine that very well. Though.....The tank cap isn't expensive.

 

[supertramp63]

Compared to the other PVC valves I've seen on 2.7s (this exact PCV valve) it doesn't look too bad. The radiator cap just has rust on the top in the middle, not around the raised edges and not the bottom. At first I thought that the pressure pushed the radiator cap so hard it lossened it to seep through the top. However, I think water or water else maybe just got on it and stayed there. It's the only explanation I can think of. But yeah, I want another cap. By the way, when I check open the radiator cap, it doesn't let air into the engine, even if I run it with the cap off? I don't need to worry about bleeding air out unless I'm flushing it, correct?

That's either not an OEM elbow or it is swelled up from exposure to oil. There are no clamps for the PCV hose connections - they are properly sized to fit the PCV valve and the heat exchanger without clamps - none needed since there is no pressure.

Are you saying you're seeing coolant inside the PCV hoses?

:

This is definitely not the OEM elbow. It is a piece of rubber (double layered) that was a quick fix. I didn't notice it at first, but I've seen a lot of 2.7s that have that exact piece repaired. Some with rubber elbows, some with white tape. I'm guessing that elbow piece can't be bought separately, so I would have to buy the whole heat exchanger unit.

When you say "PCV hoses" what are you referring to? The valve is plugged into the manifold, with one elbow piece (not original) connecting to another elbow piece (forming a S shape) that comes to the heat exchanger.

Speaking of which, what exactly is being exchanged here? When I go to your posts, you often reference other onces, which refer to other ones and I end up two 20 tabs open. Wikipedia effect. Anyways, just to clarify, I read one of your posts explaining it and found and article with a picture. Going off this, we want the stuff exiting the PCV valve to remain a vapor (heat/pressure), so it has to exit hotter. So the gases run in from the PCV valve, and exit on the opposite side and go back into the engine. We need heat for this, so the hot coolant is put through another cycle after it has cooled the engine. It enters the closest to the PCV valve entry, zigzags, and exits to the reservoir. The imagine doesn't match up directly with my car, but I assume it can be mirrored as long as those IN and OUT conditions are met. There's another picture with labels where HO is valve gas entry, H1 is valve exit, C0 is Coolant IN, and C1 is coolant OUT. H is red, C is blue. It this correct?

By the way, I tried to get that new OEM part, and Facebooked Mopar to make sure that is was the right part. Their reply? "We recommend you buy parts from a licensed Mopar dealer." That part is $70 from a Dodge dealer, and I can get it online at http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/111708341016?ul_noapp=true&chn=ps&lpid=82
for $50. Problem is, although they have a good overall rating, there's a 2.3 % chance that I will have a bad or neutral (which in my book is bad) experience. Everything from late shipping to wrong part to no returns. However, checking their positive feedback, no one says they got the wrong part and got fixed quickly, leading me to believe that I have, roughly, a 97% chance of being screwed, to a degree I can't measure (what if they take two weeks to ship the wrong part). EBAY has some bay ways to do approval ratings (uses last 12 months, instead of the last month. They also don't calculate neutral transactions, which are actually negative: if they mail you the wrong part and fix it quickly, you lost time, but If you order the wrong part, you are stuck with it).

I'm know the manager down at the Dodge Dealer that I'm getting this from. I dislike how Mopar neglected my comment (if they had made the part correctly at first, this wouldn't be a problem. Blame it on Dodge all you want, but your name is on it). I don't want to go down their and pay for the part, although with a military and tax discount it would only cost my $60, so I'm left with the option of paying $10 to hedge myself against a bad/wrong/incorrect part. So I'll pay the $10 extra to get it now and correct, (Plus to build some Good will with their manager I know. I hate that I only call him when I have a car question.)

 

[peva]

(deleted - see next post)

 

[peva]

...But yeah, I want another cap...

I recommend the OEM cap from a dealer rather than an aftermarket one. Nothing particularly wrong with the aftermarket part - in this particular case the OEM caps just seem to be made better - IMO.

Now when it comes to PCV valves for our cars, I prefer the aftermarket part (which appears to be what you have in your photos). The OEM PCV valves from the dealers had a serious manufacturing flaw in them a not too many years ago, and I don't know if they ever fixed that.

By the way, when I check open the radiator cap, it doesn't let air into the engine, even if I run it with the cap off?

I don't believe it would. I probably don't have to tell you not to let it get near full operating temperature with the system not pressurized, else you can get flash steam, and possible damage to the engine or injury to yourself.

I don't need to worry about bleeding air out unless I'm flushing it, correct?

Or anytime there was a leak like you had with the outlet housing. - anytime air gets into the system whatever the cause.

This is definitely not the OEM elbow. It is a piece of rubber (double layered) that was a quick fix. I didn't notice it at first, but I've seen a lot of 2.7s that have that exact piece repaired. Some with rubber elbows, some with white tape.

I have experimented a lot with trying to find aftermarket substitutes for the PCV hoses. The results I came up with is that the materials are not right, and they turn to crap *very* quickly. Not sure if it's due to the heat, vapors, or the oil, but whatever the cause, they don't hold up. Always go OEM on those.

I'm guessing that elbow piece can't be bought separately, so I would have to buy the whole heat exchanger unit.

Buy you books, send you to school, and you eat the teacher!! If you were in the military, you've heard that before.

The whole point of the last half of my post no. 26 was so you can avoid wasting money on replacing a perfectly good heat exchanger by buying the hose (<$15) that used to come on these cars before they added the heat exchanger, cut the hose into 3 sections, throw away the center section, and use the two end pieces to connect the valve cover to the "gozinta" end of the heat exchanger and connect the "gozouta" end of the heat exchanger to the PCV valve.

When you say "PCV hoses" what are you referring to? The valve is plugged into the manifold, with one elbow piece (not original) connecting to another elbow piece (forming a S shape) that comes to the heat exchanger.

The two pieces of rubber hose from the valve cover and to the PCV valve. Again - aftermarket hose does not fit right or hold up for very long at all. BTDT.

Speaking of which, what exactly is being exchanged here? When I go to your posts, you often reference other onces, which refer to other ones and I end up two 20 tabs open. Wikipedia effect.

I don't want to hear it. I provide the info. The links aren't really necessary - provided in case you want to broaden your understanding from reading another thread. What I posted is self-contained without the links.

Anyways, just to clarify, I read one of your posts explaining it and found and article with a picture. Going off this, we want the stuff exiting the PCV valve to remain a vapor (heat/pressure), so it has to exit hotter. So the gases run in from the PCV valve, and exit on the opposite side and go back into the engine. We need heat for this, so the hot coolant is put through another cycle after it has cooled the engine. It enters the closest to the PCV valve entry, zigzags, and exits to the reservoir. The imagine doesn't match up directly with my car, but I assume it can be mirrored as long as those IN and OUT conditions are met.

Pretty much. Actually this particular heat exchanger is probably internally a lot simpler than that. I suspect it's basically a double-walled cylinder with the coolant simply flowing between the walls, and then exiting. The zig-zagging (through internal tubes, like thru a radiator) is for when you really have to maximize the transfer of heat. This part is a lot simpler - rocket science not needed, so it is made simply and cheaply. Just stealing a little heat from the coolant to keep vapors from condensing out inside the PCV hoses and valve and clogging them up.

There's another picture with labels where HO is valve gas entry, H1 is valve exit, C0 is Coolant IN, and C1 is coolant OUT. H is red, C is blue. It this correct?

Where you have H1 should be labeled H0 (gas entry), and your H0 should be labeled H1 (gas exit). Rather than "valve" gas entry and "valve" gas exit, I'd call those "heat exchanger" gas entry and "heat exchanger" gas exit to avoid confusion with the PCV valve itself.

By the way, I tried to get that new OEM part, and Facebooked Mopar to make sure that is was the right part. Their reply? "We recommend you buy parts from a licensed Mopar dealer." That part is $70 from a Dodge dealer, and I can get it online at http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/111708341016?ul_noapp=true&chn=ps&lpid=82
for $50...

Not sure what your point is there, but the ebay seller is a licensed Mopar dealer. There are also licensed dealers who have their own web sites where they sell at discounted prices - many of them are the same dealers that are on ebay.

Now - there are 3rd party sellers on ebay that sell "new old stock" that they buy off of dealers dumping old inventory. Though not licensed dealers, they generally are legit as long as their seller ratings are in the very high 90's. HOWEVER - they should identify the parts as "new old stock", or NOS. I have given neutral feedback and neg. comments for that omission before, but generally if you nail them on it with a message, they'll offer you a partial refund so you won't give them neutral or neg. feedback. When that happened, I gave pos. feedback, but mentioned what happened in my feedback comment to give them incentive to identify NOS in the future.

 

[supertramp63]

Sorry about the saying buying a new exchanger. I saw the thing about how you can mod it, I'm just kind of doing things one at a time (it's on the list). Sinse there isn't an elbow that is trust worthy, I'll move to that option because that's something I want to address, too. I'm currently in the middle of other stuff (class) and I just prepping myself.

I've bee lurking these forums for months, reading, watching, waiting. While I thought I was prepared, I have forgotten a lot of stuff, and should have written it down. Honestly, I pissed that they sold me that outlet. Like this thing doesn't have enough problems already.

My last point was purely venting. This is my Facebook exchange with them. They just want me to buy from them, instead of wholesalers. Shady MOPAR

..................

SUN 7:18PM
Does this item
http://www.ebay.com/itm/252135429683
Go on a car with VIN 2b3hd46r0yh129773
MON 1:13PM

Hey *****, thanks for reaching out. I would recommend reaching out to your local certified FCA dealer for further assistance with parts and accessories for your vehicle. You can locate one via http://www.mopar.com/find-a-dealer/. Thanks! - Kevin T, Social Connect Team.
..........................

 

[In-trepid]

Be aware that as our cars get older, for a lot of items the scrap yard is the best source of parts. I'm not sure what you have for yards around you, but the Intrepids, 300m, Concordes, and LHS are pretty common in the yards here around Chicago. It has become my favorite shopping place and the price is always right!

 

[supertramp63]

The original rubber elbow must have had some issues because it seems every car I've seen as that same thing problem, and people try to quick fix it but it doesn't work.

As far as scrap yards go, I can't really think of anything I would want out of the engine.

By the way, something interesting I found:

I used the VIN number and called Chrysler about vehicle history. Since the car was under warranty, I was hoping that they would have a log of all the work done to it. I found they had to replace the trunk latch multiple times, but there were a couple recalls. Apparently, the shoulder mount of the seat belt failed, and some screw or pin that reclines the driver seat can fail and cause the seat to fold back. I even speculated with the guy why they were recalled (noting that these were not voluntary recalls; when asked if it was by the National Highway Safety Whoever, he just said "they were safety recalls). In a front end collision, your shoulder seat belt could fail, and in a rear-end collision, the seat itself fails. Also, the O ring on the water inlet tube was replaced. So it leaking has been a pretty known problem; the car was under warranty so the replacement of it shows that it was faulty.

Have you guys heard anything about these things? We know about the engines, but the safety-wise, this is disturbing.

 

[supertramp63]

I probably don't have to tell you not to let it get near full operating temperature with the system not pressurized, else you can get flash steam, and possible damage to the engine or injury to yourself.

No, I didn't know that. I take that to mean don't run it with the cap off or any major leaks.

 

[supertramp63]

Update

Update: I've been busy with school and other stuff and just got to where I can work on my car. It took me SO long to get that upper intake manifold off. I got the new partm almost have it in but I've having trouble taking the clamp off the rubber hose:heater return pipe. It's been broke off so I'm having to be careful.

Not that I'm in a rush right now, anyways, because I need to do a lot of cleaning. But first, let's look at the pictures then the video.

As you can see, the top was about to blow off the water outlet. The other picture shows a crack in it: I have no idea how long that crack has been there, but I don't think that's been there the entire time I've been losing coolant. I turned the old housing unit upside down and put some water into it. No leaks (which makes sense because I only really saw steam when it overheated.

The combination of steam and the red dirt that is common I my area has made it a mess. Let's move on to the elephant in the room.

The video shows me zooming in to a couple of the holes. It looks like it's covered in sludge. Is that what the stuff is? The first one has a reddish appearance, the second one doesn't, but the third one has what looks like shavings in it.

This is pretty much the end, isn't it? Should I just load my shotgun and put one in her head?

 

[supertramp63]

Update 2

Guess it would help if I included those pictures and video.